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Producers note: Mature subject matter around sex is discussed in this episode.   As we’ve been learning in our Dating, Sex and Relationship series, there is no one right way to go about finding satisfaction in these areas of life. And the same is true for sex. You deserve to find joy and pleasure in your body and your sexuality just as you are, no matter what. There are so many things that culture has told us about our bodies and our sexuality that aren’t true. We’re going to walk through some of those misnomers and some healthy ways to approach sex with our very wise guest, sex educator and return visitor to our show, Emily Nagoski.  Emily describes her mission as helping women live with joy and confidence inside their bodies. She wants us to know that our bodies have wisdom to share, and that our bodies can be trusted–their intuition is actually  good for us and our protection. She explains what a sex drive is (actually, what it isn’t, because it’s not actually a thing–surprise!). Emily also shares key findings from couples who sustain strong sexual connection over the long term (and those two things aren’t what people most generally think they are). In this frank conversation about sex, Emily encourages us to lean into our sexual pleasure and shake off any hesitations that are usually due to cultural shame or baggage. And if you think that exploring your sexuality isn’t possible with a busy career, kids, and other responsibilities, Emily removes the myth that scheduling sex makes it less hot. When we normalize all sorts of sexual responses, we remove barriers that keep us from making space for all this pleasure that has always been ours to claim.  * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Rothy’s | $20 off your first purchase by visiting Kiwico | 50% off your first month of a Kiwico subscription and free shipping for any crate line with the code FORTHELOVE at BetterHelp | Visit and get 10% off your first month   Thought-Provoking Quotes “I think having curiosity about our own bodies and continually learning in a non-judgmental way is really important. Trusting the message your body is sending you more than anyone else's expressed opinion about what should be happening with your body. We can believe our bodies over and above anybody else's opinion about bodies.”  - Emily Nagoski “We actually heal ourselves when we allow uncomfortable feelings to melt through our bodies. On the other side of it, that process has healed our bodies and freed us from the lies that we were told when we were small.” - Emily Nagoski “What is it that I want when I want sex? And what is it that I like when I like sex? And talk about those answers with your partner. And it'll help you to remember why. If there is a ‘why’ for sex in your relationship, this will help you remind you why.” - Emily Nagoski “The person you are is a person worth being. This is the whole you're enough, but the thing is–you are enough. It is only in this like culturally constructed comparison against a fictional and often deliberately unachievable ideal that we torture ourselves about the way our sexuality works.” - Emily Nagoski “I got taught to put on a show. I got taught that men really like it when women seemed to be having a good time. So I got taught to act like I was having a good time so that he would like it. And there's this big, deep irony that I was learning to put on the show of pleasure, without even asking whether or not I was actually experiencing pleasure.” - Emily Nagoski “There is no quota of pleasure. There's no such thing as too little pleasure. And there's no such thing as too much pleasure. Nobody gets to judge or decide about your experience of pleasure.”  - Emily Nagoski “If you're a person who needs to like and admire your partner and you need to know that they like and admire you, that they respect you, that they are there for you, then there is no amount of lingerie or handcuffs or porn or role play is ever going to make you interested in having the sex available to you with a person whom you don't trust.” - Emily Nagoski “Let's make a world with less body shame. Let's make a world where girls are raised to believe that they have a basic right to bodily autonomy and that pleasure is their birthright. They have the right to all the pleasure that their body is capable of experiencing without being afraid of it or ashamed of it or needing to prioritize somebody else's pleasure over theirs.” - Emily Nagoski “Neurologically, pleasure is a practice. The more we practice paying attention to pleasure, the easier it is for our brains to notice pleasure.” - Emily Nagoski “Have pleasure. Desire will follow.” - Emily Nagoski   Emily Nagoski’s LinksEmily’s website Emily’s Instagram   Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode Dr. Bessel VanDerKolk For the Love Podcast Episode (Your Body Keeps the Score) Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski Amelia Nagoski Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex Life (Emily’s new book)  Magnificent Sex: Lessons from Extraordinary Lovers by Peggy Kleinplatz ACE resources toward understanding asexuality from The Trevor Project Orgasms for Two by Betty Dodson Donald Hall’s Essay about marriage “The Third Thing”  Ms. Marvel - TV Show on Disney+   Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube
When we were putting this series together about love and sex and relationships, we knew we had  to have a guest that was well-versed in the ways of dating through online apps and digital services.  For those of us who may be seeking a partner for the first time, or maybe we’re back in the dating pool after leaving a relationship–we can all benefit from practical tips on how to navigate it all.  All the questions you could possibly think of related to online dating–we’ve got you covered, like: what do you look for when you’re looking at someone’s online profile? What are the red flags? How do I make my own profile reflect who I am and what I want? And is having a meal on a first date really a good idea? [Spoiler Alert: No.] We’ve got just the person to hold our hand through what can be an overwhelming process—we’re happy to introduce online dating coach, Perri Schneider to the For the Love community. She's going to answer all these questions for us and then some, and you’re going to want to take note of what she has to say. Perri's story is one many of us can relate to.  After getting fed up with less than stellar experiences in her attempts at modern dating, she decided to help others navigate this online space. She learned through trial and error, and she’s got the 411 on how to master the process. She helps her clients shift their approach and their intentions with dating apps in the hopes that her clients find precisely what they are looking for–whether it is new experiences, casual fun, relationships, or even their dream partner. Consider this your field guide on which apps to use, how to approach a first date, what to do if you’re ghosted, and so much more–and maybe you’ll even find love along the way.  * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Liquid IV | Get 25% off at using promo code For The Love Feed These People | Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.  All the Dish Tour | Jen is going on tour and will have special guests at each stop! Find your city and get your tickets at    Thought-Provoking Quotes “Find one or two apps that you've kind of heard of or that have a good reputation, and just get your toe into the water. Just go for it. And remember, you are in the driver's seat. It's great. If someone's giving you the heebie-jeebies, you can unmatch someone.” - Perri Schneider “When you're actively looking at profiles, make it your one active task. That way, you're limiting your time spent and you're kind of pushing away the ability for you to fall into that garbage-y feeling.” - Perri Schneider “There's no rush to meet seven people at once. Enjoy it. Revel in it. Dating should be fun and enjoyable, first and foremost.” - Perri Schneider “The best way to kind of break into the dating world and really brace yourself for potential rejection is get on the dang phone with them.” - Perri Schneider “You're never going to find success when you're not in a space where you can ease-in and really present yourself authentically.” - Perri Schneider   Perri Schneider’s LinksPerri’s website Perri’s Instagram Perri’s Twitter   Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube
Producer's Note: Mature subject matter around sex is discussed in this episode.  We’re covering it all in our Relationships, Sex and Dating series, and this week’s episode has a twist. It’s not all flowers, heart emojis, and adrenaline when it comes to love and relationships–finding them, keeping them, growing them. Some of us have done all those things–possibly for many years–and yet for many reasons, find ourselves thrust back into the dating pool after divorce, or death, or when a long term relationship ends. And maybe we never thought we’d have to look to find love again after so many years of being in a relationship. It’s unexpected, it’s disappointing and disorienting. We’ve become strangers in a strange land. Fortunately, we have a guest this week who is going to help map us through that strange land and her name is Laura Stassi.  Laura was married for 30 years and went through what researchers have labeled “gray divorce.” As she started to come out of the daze that can set in when your life is completely uprooted in this way–she began to realize that there were a lot more people that had been through the same thing than she had ever imagined. In fact, it’s a worldwide trend. As she noticed that she was in plentiful company with others who were coming out of long term partnerships and trying to figure out what was next, she set her mind to research and that research eventually turned into a popular public radio backed podcast called “Dating While Gray.”  Laura and Jen get into it all; How do you navigate today’s world of dating when men and women have thousands of options to choose from via dating apps? What’s it like to have sex with someone new after having sex with the same person for many years? How do you handle finances when you’re both grown ups with assets and income?  Find these answers and more from both Laura’s and Jen’s experience, plus a little encouragement that when you’re truly open to new possibilities, the world can open up for you in amazing ways.  * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Betterhelp | Get 10% off your first month at  All the Dish Tour| Jen is going on tour! Find your city and get your tickets at  Feed These People| Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.    Thought-Provoking Quotes “I look back now and people were like, ‘Why were you fighting the end of your marriage so much?’ I was like, ‘You know what? I was scared. I was scared out of my mind.’  Not that I didn't have the strength to be on my own, but I didn't know anybody else who was single.” - Laura Stassi “Everybody needs to learn how to be on their own happily, financially, emotionally, physiologically. You just need to be comfortable in your own skin, in your own space, in your own skin, however that may look.” - Laura Stassi “One thing that would behoove all of us is to learn how to be more open with everything. For some of us, I feel like I'm more open mainly because I was forced into it. When you're forced into single's world after being in married land, if you stay close minded about anything, I don't think you're going to have a happy life.” - Laura Stassi “Money is one of those things that if you're going to become involved with somebody, you need to talk about it. Maybe that means you don't commingle. Maybe that means you don't live together without a cohabitation agreement. The minute you start joining lives officially or unofficially, you want to be very clear about finances.” - Laura Stassi    Laura’s Links Laura Stassi’s Instagram Laura Stassi’s Twitter Laura Stassi’s Facebook Dating While Gray Podcast   Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube  
Our For the Love of Dating, Sex and Relationships series continues, and lest you think we’re solidly in the camp of “all people must be paired up,” let us assure you we’re firmly on the side of choosing whatever state of being (attached or not) best fits your life. We’re here, in this episode, to talk about the state and the choice of singleness. So maybe you’re unattached and you want to find the love of your life. Perhaps you’re getting pressure from friends and family as to why you remain available. (we can all hear that well-meaning person’s voice in our ear–”but you’re such a catch! Why are you still single??).  Maybe you’ve gone on a LOT of dates (bad and good) and you’re ready to get off that train, but don’t want to give up the notion of potentially finding someone one day. We have good news. You get to choose to be happily single. And that does not preclude you from future partnership. So maybe the happily single part is what you’re struggling with (and that others in your life who want to see you partnered up aren’t helping) but our guest today knows what you’re going through and wants you to know you’re not alone. After years of actively dating and pursuing dates through a variety of digital means, writer Shani Silver decided she didn’t want to spend the rest of her 30’s swiping through face after face to see if maybe love would find her. She decided to go a different route and is here to share where it's led her on her quest to be happy with who and where she is right now. Shani likes to say that she is not an advocate for singlehood necessarily, but an advocate for women feeling good while single. She wrote a book called A Single Revolution: Don’t Look for a Match, Light One which she hopes is helping women feel better about this incredibly valuable time in their lives. She gives us pointers on how to make ourselves available for all kinds of experiences and people–whether we’re looking for love or not—and surprise, it doesn’t necessarily have to involve dating apps or even dating itself! During their conversation, Jen also discusses her tentative steps into singlehood after 26 years of marriage and her brief experience on dating apps, and how love organically found her. Single, married, divorced or looking for love, we can all look at this time in our lives (and in the lives of our friends) as one to be embraced, not scorned, and why, more than ever, it can be a positive, endlessly full-of-possibility way of living. * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Chime | Sign up for a no fee checking account at  Third Love | Take the quiz and 20% of your first purchase at  Feed These People| Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.    Thought-Provoking Quotes “What if being single wasn't bad? What if being single was good and valuable and a really cool, positive endlessly possible season of your life? What if it was good? It's challenging just the fabric of our brains in terms of what singlehood means. But that's where it has to start.” - Shani Silver “You can look forward to your future relationships. You can even pursue them to the extent that you're comfortable doing so. Dating is not a prerequisite for partnership. You can also value and cherish all of the opportunity that you have now to live happily.” - Shani Silver “What is meant for you will not miss you.” - Shani Silver “I would suggest to people and couples is whatever effort a single [person] is making to be a part of your life, if you can,  try to reciprocate that effort. And if you can't, let them know why.” - Shani Silver “We've got to learn to be happy for people.  You don't want to live your life as a jealous person. Be happy for people. Be happy.” - Shani Silver “We deserve more ways out of singlehood misery than just “find someone” and [those ways] are abundant. They do exist. That's why I talk as ferociously as I do because I found them and I love them. If I can pull myself out of the darkest pit of singlehood despair that exists, anyone can.”- Shani Silver Shani Silver’s Links Shani Silver Website Shani Silver Instagram Shani Silver Twitter   Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s Instagram Jen’s Twitter Jen’s Facebook Jen’s YouTube
Description We’re bringing you all the goods with our For the Love of Dating, Sex and Relationships series. So if you’ve ever tried dating as a fully grown adult, you might have a few feelings about it. Maybe you’ve been swiping and swiping and swiping (and if this makes no sense to you, it’s okay–you’ll know what it means by the end of this series) and you’re just not connecting with anyone who sets your world on fire. It can really be the wild west out there in the digital dating world,  but we’re here to help. Perhaps you’ve perused the dating sites and maybe you’ve even joined a site, created a profile, or taken the leap to go on a date. Dating sites have successfully brought millions of people together, but as they say, you might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet your prince or princess (no offense to frogs). But there are more than a few ways to find love if you’re looking for it.  And this week we are excited to talk about the world of matchmaking–a way of bringing people together that has a long and storied history–and is still alive and well in our digital age. Founder of RBL (Real Black Love) Matchmaking service Joseph Dixon is on the show with his colleague Paris Denise to give us the  finer points of finding love through a matchmaker. . Joseph and Paris entered the world of matchmaking after seeing negative experiences that were affecting long and lasting relationships in their community. Since then, they have been focused and dedicated to connecting people for committed relationships in and for the black community.  Matchmaking has come a long way since the Victorian era (and even since our 70’s favorite, The Dating Game)  and now with experts like Paris and Joseph at the ready, you can take advantage of a deeper way to find someone to share your life–the art of matchmaking has led to thousands of successful relationships!   * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Betterhelp | Get 10% off your first month at  Rothy’s | Get $20 off your first purchase at  All The Dish Tour | Find your city and get your tickets at    Thought-Provoking Quotes “I got divorced. I was in my early 30s. There was nothing out there for African American singles looking for substantial connections, and me being a web developer, I decided to go ahead and take the onus on myself to actually build something out to help people like myself find substantial relationships.”  – Joseph Dixon  “We're taking the time to teach people that you need to holistically look at people. And of course income is important, of course assets are important, but also a person's character, their conflict resolution skills, their emotional intelligence and their support, and their general personality and how they receive love and how they give love is important as well.” – Paris Denise   “Change up your dating cycle, change up your dating pattern because you don't know what you don't like until you actually don't like it.” – Joseph Dixon  “When it came to dating apps, when it comes to Black people, it was a taboo in our community. And if you were on a dating app, you didn't talk about it at all, right? This is literally less than 10 years ago.” – Joseph Dixon  “Don't tell me what you want. I need to find out what you need, because if we can establish that first, then you may find out the person that you've been looking for is not actually the person that you really need." – Joseph Dixon  “People are dealing with a lot of relationship anxiety. They're dealing with a lot of doubt, a lot of trauma. I'm not a genie and I'm not a wizard, but I can definitely get in the trenches with you and help you fight this battle, because it's challenging being single and finding the person that you want.” – Paris Denise  Joseph & Paris’ LinksReal Black Love Website Real Black Love Instagram    Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
One aspect of dating after a breakup or divorce is the terrifying ordeal of being known again. Whether it’s because you can’t imagine opening yourself back up to someone in complete vulnerability or maybe you can’t fathom anyone having enough time to plumb the depths of your idiosyncrasies—I mean, who is ever going to take the time to learn your quirks and help you celebrate them in all their unapologetic glory, again? And how are you going to ever forgive the person who disappointed you and doesn’t want to be your #1 knower anymore? With Jen jumping back in the saddle in the dating world, we needed someone to help us all laugh and sift through post-divorce dating tribulations. Cameron Esposito is a comedian, author, podcast host, actor and recovering Catholic; and we’re delighted to have her lead the way for this episode of the Dating, Sex and Relationships series. Like Jen, Cameron went through a public facing divorce and has since found love and happiness. They talk about the complications of coming into yourself while dating when you’re dealing with grief from divorce, trauma from a strict religious culture, and new unexplored feelings around your gender and body. No stone is left unturned in this conversation and Cameron’s frank and honest storytelling is a balm for those of us afraid of a future that doesn’t look like our past.   * * * Thank you to our sponsors! Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join the sisterhood in nerdiness today at  ABLE | Head to and use code JEN to get 15% off your order.    Thought-Provoking Quotes “Certainty used to make me feel safe, it felt like guardrails around me and the way that I knew what the rules were, I knew what to do and not to do. Then those began to lose their appeal, of course, and then became their own prison, ultimately. But curiosity is a completely different posture.” – Cameron Esposito  “Queer culture isn't actually about sex, but because it's been criminalized and othered, it also was embraced and the culture was built around it.”  – Cameron Esposito  “To not have characters who represent us [in media] is to remove us from the world. If we're not there, you've removed us.”  – Cameron Esposito  “If somebody dies and is erased from the planet, then we can go to that person's people and it's a little more clean to understand that that person might feel grief. I think in the case of divorce, that can get really muddled for folks.” – Cameron Esposito    Cameron’s LinksWebsite  Instagram Facebook Twitter   Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
We’re starting a new series that is going to be fire–it’s For the Love of Dating, Sex and Relationships. We’re going to cover a lot of territory over the life of this series–and with this episode we’re going to start with a question; what was it that you learned about sex during the most formative years of your life? Because whether you realize it or not, this can greatly shape how you approach sex as an adult. Maybe you’ve been unraveling what it is you think about sex, how you think about your body, what sex means to you–and you’re tracing it back to what you learned as teenager or young adult–and maybe that education wasn’t positive. To help guide us through making those connections to our early sexual education and how we view sex today is therapist Jay Stringer–returning for his second appearance on the show. Jay pulls back the curtain on the teachings many of us got about sex when we were young. Even if you never were a part of movements like “True Love Waits,” or received lessons on purity culture by your church, or other religious organizations–perhaps there was a rigid sexual space in the childhood home you grew up in. We’re speaking to all the ways sex might have been presented to us with messages of shame.  Jay encourages us to look at our sexual stories, seeking ways to find healing and wholeness toward a healthy view of sex. And bonus–for you parents who find talking about sex with your kids akin to a slow, painful death, Jay and Jen talk through ways can engage our kids around sex without the shame approach that a lot of us experienced, and to have those conversations in a loving, age-appropriate way by being open and responsive.   Content Warning: This episode talks extensively about sex, sexuality, and unwanted sexual behaviors, so it may not be suitable for young listeners.    Series Description Y’all. It’s time to talk about it. The good, the bad, the ugly, the dramatic, the hilarious. That’s right–we’re talking about relationships. As Jen dips her toes back in the dating world post-divorce, what better time to call in the experts? For many of us grown adults who haven’t dated in a thousand years, the methods have changed, the rules have changed (swipe left anyone?) and we’re clueless where to start. And for those of you have been in the mix of it for awhile, you’ll still find something new to learn in these conversations that run the gamut  from sex, to matchmaking, to finding love in this new world order. We’ll also talk about what to do when your kids start dating, how to navigate the apps (RIP to our sanity), and what to do if you don’t want to be single, and if you do, how to find the maximum satisfaction out of going it solo.  We’ll chat with experts, friends, mentors, leaders–basically the people who have the receipts to give us the goods on what healthy relationships look like and how to nurture and build them to what they need to be. Because at the end of the day, good relationships with ourselves and others are what makes life sweeter.   * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Betterhelp | Head to to get 10% off your first month.    Liquid IV | Get 25% off your order at using code FORTHELOVE at checkout.    Faith MeCourse | Reconnect to your faith today at!  Thought-Provoking Quotes “If you hate your sexual desire, and you are militantly trying to stop it, you are going to develop a very severe and harmful theology, and that's exactly what happened in purity culture.” – Jay Stringer    “I've seen the purity culture really affect women in three particular ways. I would say that it deprioritizes women's sexual pleasure. It set women up for sexual violation. Then, the third, is that it contributed to sexual pain.”  – Jay Stringer    “I think one of the greatest myths out there is that you can't change your past. In some ways, the past is far easier to change than the future, in that you can go back to that scared, adolescent girl, and you can begin to mother her. You can ask her, ‘what are the things that you wish that you would have known back in the day?’”  – Jay Stringer    “When we don't have language for what we're experiencing or what we're coming out of, we aren't going to have language to be able to create a new sexual world, so we've got to educate ourselves. We've got to get into community and start talking through this stuff in order to rewrite our sexual script.”  – Jay Stringer    “For a seed to grow, it has to transgress the seed casing, and the root has to go down in order for the shoot to go up, and so that sense of our children need to transgress the boundaries, in some ways, that we have created, in order for them to individuate, to be able to grow. We don't want to create soil that does not allow them to transgress the boundaries of childhood. We want to allow some of that transgression to grow. I think that begins by inviting them to consider like, what do you want your own sexual story to look like?”  – Jay Stringer    “View sexual difficulties as a stage to be able to rewrite your story.”  – Jay Stringer   Jay’s LinksWebsite Facebook Instagram Twitter    Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeUnwanted: How Sexual Brokeness Reveals Our Way to Healing - Jay Stringer Addressing Broken Sexual Behavior with Jay Stringer - For the Love Podcast Episode  The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You’ve Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended - Sheila Gregoire  Come As You Are: Revised and Updated: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life - Emily Nagoski  Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less - Greg McKeown Dr. Dan Allender  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
We’ve reached the end friends, sadly Me Camp 2022 is over for the summer. And just like real camp, coming back home is wonderful and bittersweet at the same time. Making new friends, trying new things and getting outside the everyday routine is the magic of camp and Jen reflects on her time in Aspen to her last days in Grand Marais with gratefulness to be able to take this kind of time for herself (and to invite others into the fold, turning MeCamp into WeCamp!). Jen shares how MeCamp began; it started with the need to get away to regroup from a chaotic and heartbreaking season of her life and led to a revelation of what it truly means to take time for yourself to heal. She vowed that she wouldn’t go another year without taking this time, but instead of being born out of sadness, this year’s MeCamp was a deliberate, and joyful excursion. While listing all the the virtues of solo travel, Jen gives us some practical ideas on how we can replicate our own MeCamp— even if we’re not able to travel far or for an extended time. Enjoy this last letter from MeCamp 2022, and let’s start dreaming about our own 2023 MeCamps!   * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Chime | Get started at today!    Third Love | Head over to to get 20% off your order.    MeCourse | Reconnect with your faith today at  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube  
Description With MeCamp on the tail end of it’s 2022 tenure, Jen is still traversing the wilds of Minnesota, trespassing on neighboring roofs to read her book, and bring her beloveds along on the ride with her. So as we enter week 3, Jen’s best girlfriends arrive for 4 days, followed by a visit from our favorite Hatmaker sisters, Remy and Sydney. Jen also gives her takeaways on the value of carving out this kind of time in your life–whether it’s a few days in a tent a couple of miles from your house, or a staycation in a nearby town–it’s really about the time for YOU, and less about where you go or how long you retreat. But for now, as we live vicariously through Jen in Minnesota this week, we’ll visit the local country store, walk between 400 and 4 million stairs on a hike, bike along the lake, and happily wear sweatshirts in July.   * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Rothy’s | Get $20 off your first purchase at    Betterhelp | Get 10% off your first month at    ABLE | Get 15% off sitewide using code JEN at    Me Course Faith | Open the door to your faith journey today at  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
This year’s Me Camp is in full swing, community. We have traveled from Austin to Aspen, and now up, up, up to the Northwoods of Minnesota, where we find ourselves in Grand Marais. Nestled on the shores of Lake Superior, this teeny tiny town was home to Jen for 3 weeks. And she is doing it all. Eating a plethora of fried fish salads, skipping rocks in the bay, potentially trespassing to sit on a picturesque roof and read her book and drink her wine. BONUS: Jen is joined by none other than the man of the moment Tyler Merritt, who discusses his unique state of being in the great white north, and his surprising and ever-so-northeastern encounter with a music-loving octogenarian.    * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Me Camp Merch | Grab your merch today at!    Me Course Faith | Open the door to your faith journey today at    FOCL | Get 20% off at using code FORTHELOVE to grab your new favorites today.    Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeThe Lighthouse Keeper’s Daughter - Hazel Gaynor    Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
You guys, it’s time again for us to load up the suitcases, grab the comfy shoes, and head on out to Me Camp 2022.  What is MeCamp you say? Jen took an extended solo trip to Maine last year after a really tough season. What she thought might be lonely and maybe a bit TOO reflective became something so rejuvenating and powerful in her life, she couldn’t keep it to herself and began sharing her experiences online with her community. So this year, she decided to mix it up and do some more solo travel (and add some friends in the mix during the time) and pull in her podcast community for all the insight, learnings and fun.  This year, join Jen as she spends time in the beautiful Rocky Mountains for week 1 of MeCamp 2022! Binge Jen’s first full week while she hits the town with an open heart and mind, eats where the locals eat, and shop where they shop. Bonus tidbits: she visits the Aspen Ideas Festival, a space filled with some of the smartest humans alive (and maybe a random Katie Couric spotting!).  Join us as all (even you folks from Aspen, who might have spotted Jen out there) as we all live vicariously through Jen’s trip to rest, reflect, and learn.    * * *   Thank you to our sponsors!   Betterhelp | Head to to get 10% off your first month.    Liquid IV | Get 25% off at using the code FORTHELOVE at checkout.    Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Join the sisterhood in nerdiness today at!    Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeAspen Ideas Festival  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
The past few weeks have been so nurturing to the collective soul of this podcast community. We have gotten together with a friend, and caught up on all that matters in our worlds (as friends do) and talked through the changes we’ve both faced recently, on finding and keeping friendship alive at this season in our lives, and how we’ve each evolved in our own beliefs.  And we’re always a little sad to say goodbye to friends, but we know that the bonds we’ve built here will keep us going til we can meet again. For the last episode of the For the Love of Conversations series, Jen and Kelly share about the men in their lives–from their friends, to their sons, their brothers, fathers and their partners—we speak to the unique relationship the opposite sex brings to our lives.  And right now in our culture, in some ways that are fair, and other ways that aren't, men are getting thrown under the bus, somewhat carte blanche. And this is rightly so in many cases and much overdue in some areas. But it still stands that there are good men and boys in our culture, men that defy the misogynistic stereotypes,  and they do lift up women and are there for their sisters and their wives and their daughters and their mothers. Jen and Kelly poke at the view of men where they are portrayed as wild and rough and emotionally unregulated–those traits can sometimes be found–but they share stories of their fathers, brothers and friends that show the reverse can be true (Kelly’s story about her dad is a 10-kleenex-er, so get ready), and that the men in their lives have truly taught them how to love better.    * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Chime | Get started at to start today!    Catalina Crunch | Head to to get 15% off your first order plus free shipping.    MeCourse | Save $20 on the parenting MeCourse using the code Parenting20 at You can also get half off all 4 courses using the code 4CourseBundle. Thought-Provoking Quotes “Isn't it funny how lucky we can get when the women that we love have men that we love too?”  – Jen Hatmaker    “A table is better with women at it, it also holds that a table is better with men at it. It shouldn't be a room full of either.” – Kelly Corrigan    “It's not true that boys don't have feelings. It's not true that they don't love deeply. It's not true that love doesn't cut them just as deep as it does girls. It's not true that they're not scared to ask a girl to prom. They are tender. It's just the packaging is so wild.” – Jen Hatmaker    “I think we have this metric for coming close to somebody that we love in their pain or in their suffering, that we've got to hit the right notes. We've got to get the formula right. That's not really how suffering works. It's just that you have to do this, but we'll make sure you're just not alone while you're doing it. That's enough.”  – Jen Hatmaker  “My parents set a really good example for me of being deeply connected to their friends, the men, the women, everybody. And so I never knew that that wasn't a thing. I just assumed you grow up and you create deep and lasting relationships with the men and women in your life. That's just how you live.”    – Jen Hatmaker  Kelly’s LinksWebsite  Instagram Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders  Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeKate Baer  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Welcome back to another episode of our For the Love of Conversations series with one of Jen’s best loved friends, author, speaker and podcaster  Kelly Corrigan. Both Jen and Kelly have seen strong beliefs give way to new beliefs, and old beliefs be tested by time and experience. It's a wonder to learn as you move through the world, even if those lessons are hard won and hands down, a ton of them are. It's a beautiful and redemptive thing to take a step back and level the playing field you are on–in whatever season of life you’re in–and see if everything that makes up “you:”  all the stories you tell yourself about your life and other people and what happened to you and even about your own self–that composite of what you believe. And take heart in knowing  that your beliefs don’t have to remain the same forever– they can grow and change with us. Jen and Kelly go deep into what beliefs they hold dear, how the truth that binds us might look a little different than it used to for all of us, and the comfort they find in a community that lives with a sense of curiosity and how to keep that alive for every phase of our beliefs.   * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Rothy’s | Get $20 off your first purchase at    KiwiCo | Get 50% off your first month plus free shipping on any crate line at using code FORTHELOVE.    Betterhelp | Get 10% off your first month at  Thought-Provoking Quotes   “I think we're built to evaluate instantly friend or foe. I think that's our evolutionary nature, but we're not on the Savannah anymore. We can take a minute to make that judgment. In fact, the longer we can hold off on making that judgment, maybe the more interesting people and stories we’ll be able to consume in a lifetime.” – Kelly Corrigan    “None of us have everything exactly right because that's not a thing. There's no such thing as always right or always wrong. I just think we would become so much more interesting as a people if we were able to humbly take in a person's differing experience, or opinion, or worry. Those are the people that I want in my life right now. Those are the ones.” – Jen Hatmaker    “We can all love each other and not believe the same things. That's just not a requirement.” – Kelly Corrigan    “Is your version of faith making you kinder, is it making you more loving, is it making you more humble, is it creating peace around you, is it good to other people? That's a kind of faith I can get behind. If it's making you mean, and angry, and hateful, and scared, that needs reexamining.” – Jen Hatmaker  Kelly’s LinksWebsite  Instagram Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders    Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeKate Baer  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Friendship is one of those gifts in life we can run to when it feels like the rest of the world just doesn’t get us. On a day when life hasn’t been cooperating exactly as you’d hoped, who hasn’t called that friend we can vent to, cry to, laugh with, and compare notes with? And the longer a friendship goes, the deeper the bond seems to be. But some of us are in spaces in our lives where we’ve had to follow another dream and leave the proximity of our friends. And the work of friendship takes on a different layer.  It can be difficult to connect like we used to–even if it was just dropping by to say hi because you could–it’s harder to keep relationships alive when you don’t see your friend daily, weekly, or even monthly. In this second installment of our For the Love of Conversations with Jen and Kelly, we are talking all about friendship and how it changes as you mature, grow, and perhaps even re-locate. And how to keep it going strong—even across the divides of family commitments, jobs, and miles in between. Jen and Kelly first had this conversation over on Kelly’s podcast, but we loved it so much we had to share it here–plus–-Jen has added some of her own insights and comments regarding her friendship with Kelly and what she learned through their conversation.    * * *   Thank you to our sponsors!   MeCourse | Save $20 on the parenting MeCourse using the code Parenting20 at You can also get half off all 4 courses using the code 4CourseBundle.   Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Head over to to join our sisterhood in nerdiness today!    ABLE | Head over to and use code JEN to save 15% on anything. Thought-Provoking Quotes   “We're older and friendships have shifted and we have changed. A friend that was a friend 15 years ago doesn't have a tidy space in the life we have now, or our lives have changed. We've moved, and making new friends at our age can be really challenging. I don't think it's as trite as it might sound.”  – Jen Hatmaker    “Those precious friends that are in every nook and cranny, the ones who need nothing, no invitation, no permission, no entertaining, they can be pretty rare. I think we probably treasure them and miss them when we don't have them.”  – Jen Hatmaker   “I like the appreciation you're showing for some of the spaces where friendships can be surprising, where they're not just the ones we choose or we seek out, or the thing that we have in common is so obvious that we're just bound to be friends. Some of those are the most interesting people that come into our lives.”  – Jen Hatmaker   “I'm a fixer like you, and I'm smart at fixing. I'm so good at it if everybody would listen to me. But I've been in really serious therapy for the last year and a half just working through all of it. Part of it has been my kids suffering, which like me, okay, I can handle this. My kids suffering? Just put me under.”   – Jen Hatmaker    “What's interesting is the challenge. What's interesting is a little bit of tension, a completely different opinion or perspective or experience. That's interesting. That makes me curious. That'll keep me locked in.”  – Jen Hatmaker   “A connected life drunk with rich relationships is central to my soul theology. I hold so many elements of my life loosely. My career and platform matter enormously, and I aim to offer the truest best work I'm capable of. But if it went away or shifted, I'd adjust my sails. However, if all I was left holding were relationships with my family and closest community, if that is all that remained, I would still consider myself the luckiest girl on earth. My life derives its greatest meaning, its power and energy, from the people I love who love me too.”  – Jen Hatmaker   Kelly’s LinksWebsite  Instagram Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders    Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeFor the Love of Friendships: Savoring Your Friendships with Shauna Niequist  Kate Baer  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
You know there really isn’t much that’s more comforting than sitting down with one of your friends and talking openly because you know they just get you. They have seen you grow and change and evolve and become who you are today–and they don’t try to stand in the way of that change however hard it may be for them, or for you. These conversations with friends are life-giving.  And with that in mind, we thought it might be fun to have a series of conversations here in our podcast community with our best and brightest friends and dispensers of wisdom and humor. And our first conversation partner for this 4-part series is none other than one of our favorite humans herself–author, podcaster and speaker Kelly Corrigan. This first installment of For the Love of Conversations will bring us 4 weeks from Kelly’s own show, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, with new thoughts and insights from Jen herself at the front of each episode. To kick things off, Kelly and Jen tackle the good, the bad, and the ugliest parts of change. We all know that change is hard, not just for us, but for our people–and that pesky inability to see the future makes it even harder. Jen and Kelly lean into the notion that change can be beautiful. It helps us create the life we want for ourselves while growing us into the people we’ve always wanted to be.    * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Betterhelp | Get 10% off your first month at | Head to using code FORTHELOVE to start your four week trial today.    MeCourse | Save $20 on the parenting MeCourse using the code Parenting20 at You can also get half off all 4 courses using the code 4CourseBundle. Thought-Provoking Quotes “Change, although it can be literally devastating, can also, and generally does, turn out to be a great and wonderful good.” – Jen Hatmaker   “There's something in us, even in the worst possible scenario that compels us to live, that compels us to recover and to reach for hope and light and love.”  – Jen Hatmaker   “Somebody is going to make you laugh just when you thought you might never smile again. You get to borrow from their life force until your own returns.” – Jen Hatmaker   “In chasing change the risk is worth the reward as it makes us fuller, rounder, more compassionate human people. It brings us closer to alignment, into what we love, what we're good at, what has meaning to us, what brings us to life.” – Jen Hatmaker   Kelly’s LinksWebsite  Instagram Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders    Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking -  Susan Cain The Middle Place - Kelly Corrigan Worst End of School Year Mom Ever - Jen Hatmaker  Simple Habit App  Kate Baer    Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
As we come to the end of our Favorite Pastimes series, we hope you are filling your summer with your favorite activities —and maybe some new ones we’ve talked about here! Our series wouldn’t be complete without a conversation about one universal pastime that is approached with either love or loathing—cooking!  Perhaps cooking has become nothing but drudgery for you and those ungrateful kids who eye your culinary masterpieces with disdain have made you turn to slinging out Lunchables and microwave mac and cheese. Or maybe you are single and cooking for one seems like a chore. Or maybe you *think* cooking could be your thing but you’re intimidated by the lingo and measurements and if you have the right appliances (Hot Pots! Air Fryers! Immersion Blenders! Oh my!). No matter where you fall on the cooking spectrum, easy and delicious summer cooking is within your reach and we have a guest who is here to help us claim our cooking identity. Teri Turner is an author, home cook, and podcast host who has turned her love of the kitchen into a whole career for herself. Her mantra is “It’s Just Food,” —takes the pressure off, right? She encourages us to find our “food thing” and how we can perfect that signature dish that will have even the most skeptical palates coming back for more. Teri’s tips include Whole30 options, gluten free dishes—she leaves nothing behind. Teri makes cooking seem accessible to us all—and promises our kitchens can be places of joy and magic-making.    * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Pair | Get glasses as unique as you are at for 15% off your first purchase.  Thought-Provoking Quotes   “I love sharing inspiration for food and I love tips and tricks to get you in the kitchen and to cook real food, because all of us are on our phones all the time. We're busy, we’re going out to eat. And we just have to get back to take a breath and get back to cooking some beautiful food. And find the joy that comes from cooking food, eating it with friends, and the celebration of cooking.” – Teri Turner   “Here’s the thing, we have to eat anyway so we might as well surrender to it and allow cooking to be something spectacular and fun.”  – Teri Turner    “Go for what you want and make it happen and believe in yourself. And by the way have a lot of fun doing it.”  – Teri Turner   Teri’s LinksWebsite  Table Talks Podcast Facebook  Instagram  Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeNo Crumbs Left : Whole30 Endorsed, Recipes for Everyday Food Made Marvelous - Teri Turner Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Time to grab your passport and packing cubes! The world’s back open for travel—and if you’ve tried to book a trip recently, you know that, hello, the prices are a smidge higher than they used to be. But with a little planning and a lot of advice from The Points Guy, you can rack up the credit card points that’ll get you to unforgettable destinations around the world for a fraction of the price! Brian Kelly, The Points Guy himself, joins Jen to share how he turned his love of a good deal into a lifestyle brand sharing travel how-to’s for every budget from every corner of the planet (it’s a *wild* story!). Brian tips his hand on the best-kept trips you need to take at home and abroad, how you can earn enough points for a free flight to Europe in 90 days, all while building a credit score that can unlock opportunities at home while you plan your next getaway. #practical This episode is a treasure trove of travel tips, so grab a pen and paper—and maybe a fruity drink with an umbrella—because your next adventure is closer than you think!   * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Rothy’s | Get $20 off your first purchase at    KiwiCo | Get 50% off your first month plus free shipping on any crate line at using code FORTHELOVE.    Chime | Head to to get started today! Thought-Provoking Quotes “I think what I've done with points is take this really granular boring subject and kind of make it fun and ‘look what I can do.’ And being 6'7" whenever I test out airline seats and hotels, I'm like, If I can be comfortable in this seat you can too. And I added my own personality into it whereas a lot of other bloggers were kind of clinical and just taking pictures of the plane seat and the plane whereas I kind of injected a little fabulousity into it.” – Brian Kelly    “I just want to put this out there for people: if you're paying with cash or debit card, you're paying for my points. . . . When you pay cash, you're losing money because you're not getting the rewards that are built into the cost of goods.” – Brian Kelly   “When you find amazing deals, book it because most airlines will let you cancel within a day. So don't call all your friends and try to herd the cats on taking the trip, book the flight and then take 24 hours to double check you can do it. Book now, think later, that's my advice.” – Brian Kelly    “The coolest thing about points is that you can get points for free, essentially. In the US it's so lucrative—no other country can you get points paying your rent or doing online shopping. And so basically what you want to do, the foundation of any good points strategy, is maximizing your spending.” – Brian Kelly    “There's certain places you go that are just spiritual that have that energy and it's Guatemala, the food, it's safe. I've been to Guatemala multiple times, and everyone I take is like, ‘This is amazing, why doesn't everyone go here?’” – Brian Kelly    “I do believe people become better people, the more of the world they travel. You realize that other people are not scary, they're actually amazing.” – Brian Kelly  Bryan’s LinksBrian’s website, The Points Guy  Brian’s Instagram  Brian’s farm, Carbon Ridge Animal Sanctuary Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
When it comes to hobbies and pastimes, the inspiration can be drawn from anywhere. Maybe it was something you did during the summer as a kid, or it was an activity you loved to do with your mom in her freetime. No matter where your inspiration stems from, perhaps you’ve returned to it today  and it brings you peace, comfort and even healing. Our guest this week was diagnosed 15 years ago with Celiac Disease, with neurological implications that put her in a wheelchair. Looking for solace and healing, she turned to her two favorite things: reading and gluten free baking. Stephanie Hockersmith, aka, PieLadyBooks, took her therapeutic pastime and has turned it into an absolutely amazing Instagram page and now small business (and healer herself in the process)!  She takes covers of her favorite books and turns them into the most incredible pies you have ever seen! If you are curious like we were when we first met Stephanie, be sure to head over to watch this episode on YouTube as we’ll be sharing some of the incredible pies she’s created there. You’ll be inspired as Stephanie talks about how she stumbled into this art, how it guided her healing process, and why believing in yourself creates magic if you let it.  * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Pair | Get glasses as unique as you are at for 15% off your first purchase.    Me Course | Save $20 on the parenting MeCourse using the code Parenting20 at You can also get half off all 4 courses using the code 4CourseBundle.   Jen Hatmaker Book Club | Head to to join our sisterhood in nerdiness today.    ABLE | Head over to and use code JEN to save 15% on anything. Thought-Provoking Quotes “I got really, really sick about 15 years ago. It was actually celiac disease. My husband really loved pies, so I thought, "You know what? I'm going to try to really master a yummy gluten-free pie.” I just researched and researched and researched and it kept me alive in a lot of ways. As you're healing and your body's getting stronger, I had this project to work on, and so I started making these really beautiful pies.” – Stephanie Hockersmith   “It's exciting to see magic in yourself and to see yourself as something magical. I have a really hard time embracing that but pie making has helped me.” – Stephanie Hockersmith   “I am abundantly grateful. It is the most weird little niche I could have ever imagined. I never expected it, and if I could say that to anybody it's I went from being in a wheelchair 15 years ago to The Today Show last week. So you just never know where your journey's going to go.” – Stephanie Hockersmith   “Don't give up and keep fighting for that magical part of you that makes you feel alive, because it's crucial to who we are and allows us to pour out into others in such big ways.” – Stephanie Hockersmith   “For anyone looking to find their creative niche, I would say to just start. Start something, find something that gives you spark.” – Stephanie Hockersmith   Stephanie’s LinksInstagram Facebook  Stephanie’s Girl Power Playlist  Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeToday Show Appearance  The Smallest Part - Amy Harmon  Untamed - Glennon Doyle  All The Blues Come Through - Metra Farrari  The Girl With The Louding Voice - Abi Dare  All Along You Were Blooming - Morgan Harper Nichols  With The Fire on High - Elizabeth Acevedo  Fight Song - Rachel Platten  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Aren’t we all inspired by people who have taken their favorite hobby, or their little side hustle, or their craft–and they invested in it, they loved it so much that it became their main thing? In this series, we’ve introduced a variety of pastimes we all can enjoy this summer–the kinds of things that give us that break from the daily grind–but in doing so, we’re also talking to folks who took the leap to make their pastime their career. And in this episode, we’re giving a nod to a pastime that’s been exploding over the past few years–a love for plants and gardening! For many, gardening has long been a part of their favorite pastimes, but we’re seeing it become more accessible to weekend gardeners, others who thought they could never be good at it, or those who thought the whole proposition of keeping another living thing fed and watered was overwhelming at best. Marcus Bridgewater, aka, Garden Marcus, is our horticultural guide to the secret of growing healthy plants, and simultaneously, becoming more healthy ourselves. He presides over an insanely popular Instagram account, is a content creator and a CEO of his company Choice Forward, where he offers workshops, presentations, life coaching, and more to empower individuals and strengthen communities. Jen shares the story of her metamorphosis from becoming a plant murderer to plant mom with the advent of two little hanging plants entrusted to her by friends in a season where she was struggling to nurture herself; much less two plants. Marcus also gives us a peek into his new book, How to Grow: Nurture Your Garden, Nurture Yourself, and shows that it is possible to keep ourselves, our loved ones and our plants thriving and growing.   * * * Thank you to our sponsors!   Betterhelp | Get 10% off your first month at   MeCourse | Save $20 on the parenting MeCourse using the code Parenting20 at You can also get half off all 4 courses using the code 4CourseBundle.   ABLE |  Head over to and use code JEN to save 15% on anything. Thought-Provoking Quotes   “Not to deter people from plant care, but taking care of plants can be a science in a way. There are lots of levels of thought and things to consider, lots of variables that affect them, but the rewards are so cosmic that it makes all of that effort worth it.” – Marcus Bridgewater   “Every time I walked into the garden, it made me a better teacher, it made me a better friend, a better person.” – Marcus Bridgewater “All living things respond to vibration. Your voice is a collection of vibrations, and so this means your voice can be a valuable tool if you use it wisely. So, be conscious of how you use your voice, because if you're not using your voice with kindness, chances are you're not building community.” – Marcus Bridgewater   “There's no reason to not get plants, but there is also no reason to have them and have them decline and have them cost you. They're an incredible tool and that tool can become a vice if we are not conscious.” – Marcus Bridgewater   “We need to plant seeds of love, kindness, patience, and positivity so that we can grow wholesome roots, that will yield trees of prosperity, which will then yield fruits of success that we can all enjoy. And I think that if we are more conscious of those seeds, we can live in a future that has a forest of prosperity for us to all enjoy.” – Marcus Bridgewater  Marcus’s LinksWebsite Facebook  Instagram Twitter   Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeChoice Forward  How to Grow: Nurture Your Garden, Nurture Yourself - Marcus Bridgewater  Dana Hammarstrom - Co-Founder of Choice Forward    Plants Mentioned From Easiest to Hardest to Maintain Philodendron Giganteum Dieffenbachia Silver Sword Philodendron Asparagus Fern  Bromeliads Pothos  Sweet Potato Ivy  Snake Plants  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
As we continue on in our Favorite Pastime series, we’re reveling in all the opportunities that are hiding in plain sight–through the beloved activities, we cherish in our spare time. No spare time, you say? We understand—and that’s where our series has a delightful twist–these folks took their passions and hobbies and turned them from hobbies into full-fledged careers. So you think those toaster cozies you like to knit can’t be a full time gig? Think again–we’ve got creators, makers and dreamers of all ilks–and this week’s guest is one for the books! She is an artist, a poet, a driftwood collecting connoisseur–yes you heard us right–and she is creating the most unique, beautiful and accessible art that you would ever hope to see. Jaime Kurowski has always felt the call to pursue art, as it’s ingrained in her family tree. So when she took a sabbatical from teaching to pursue her driftwood creations, it wasn’t a big surprise for anyone. But like many creatives, her work comes from a place of darkness. One devastating event led to another and Jaime found herself seeking healing from her profound emotional and physical brokenness.  Part of her healing was finding a new way to unwind, express herself, and put light into the world. She came through that rough season and now has a company of her own that is thriving, and also heads up a collective of female business owners and artists who have gone through similar journeys, who all focus on finding the audacity to believe in themselves and their talents.    * * * Thank you to our sponsors! | Sign up for your 4-week trial today at using code FORTHELOVE.    MeCourse | Save $20 on the parenting MeCourse using the code Parenting20 at You can also get half off all 4 courses using the code 4CourseBundle.   Catalina Crunch | Head to for 15% off your first order plus free shipping.  Thought-Provoking Quotes   “This is my first year where I'm a full-time creative, and I'm reinventing the things that I loved about teaching, my passion for creative writing, and my passion for the words that we have on repeat in our head, women, adults, and children.  And then using the driftwood to give it art.” – Jaime Kurowski    “She was free. And when she returned to the trees, she dressed herself in lovely, placed flowers in her hair. Let sensuality slip off her shoulder, slipped strength upon her feet, looked down at this solid ground and finally stepped into herself.” – an excerpt from a poem by Jaime Kurowski  “If you ask a fourth grade class what they have on repeat, they're like, ‘I'm stupid,’ or ‘I'm ugly.’ And the confidence camp that I did for them to have a place to not be alone in that, is everything to me.” – Jaime Kurowski    Jaime’s LinksWebsite Instagram Facebook Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeThe Make(Her) Collective The Make(Her) Collective Website  For the Love of the Elephant in the Room: Grief on Your Terms with Sal & Im  Connect with Jen!Jen’s website Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
Comments (48)

Jonna Watson

For some reason when I play this episode, it's a meal planning episode by Emily Ley.

Sep 2nd

Kelli Bolden

I'm a type 8 who lives with chronic pain/illness. Any advice?

Jul 10th

lisa smith

wow! so powerful! Thank you.

Jun 24th

Lisa Leavell

Is it just me or was the song at the end cut off?

Jun 23rd

Jenny Stevens Hamilton

oh my gosh, I cannot tell you how good it feels to hear someone say what is in my head! and the question about which one I would be for a day - absolutely also a 3 for the exact same reasons.

Jun 19th

Tammy EL

Reiss Motivational Profile is a research-based assessment that is more thorough than Enneagram. Enneagram is much like a teen magazine quiz people take to guess their personality.

May 13th

Brandy Allingham

over the moon for this!

May 12th

Susie Frei

How do I access the podcast notes? I'm interested in Max Lucado's favorite commentary author'name.

Apr 15th

Carrie Meyer Berndt

Love love love u big Jen and Beth. Such a refreshing and real conversation...would not expect anything less from these 2:)

Feb 6th

Jennifer R Miller-Laprees

I just finished her book. Actually read through it twice. It is beyond heartening to see how she responds to adversity. I needed this with all my heart. Thank you Abby.

Feb 4th

Karen Meyer

great podcast Jen!! Andy is amazing!

Jan 24th

Lesley Blackwelder

Thank you for this powerful message!

Jan 7th
Reply (1)

Jamie Gann

Wonderful. Thank you.

Jan 1st

Brandy Allingham

so good to hear from your kiddos

Sep 8th
Reply (1)

Brandy Allingham

I really appreciate you and this podcast. But, I listened to and very much respect Matt Chandler's response to the horrible circumstances at his church. I wish that we could hold people accountable while being gracious.

Aug 27th
Reply (1)


Excellent episode!

Aug 10th

Christina Hamilton

At the 7:30 mark, the episode completely stops and I can't get it to resume. Anyone else having this issue?

May 28th

Jen Schmailzl

I keep hearing a static clicking throughout the whole episode. I tried listening to something else to see if it was coming from my headphones and I'm not having this problem. Is anyone else having issues with the playback of this episode?

May 28th

Christen Howard

I am almost embarrassed and ashamed that of all of the amazing podcasts I have experienced on your channel, this is the one that has me sobbing. My mother is a 5ft nothing anorexic and my father a former athlete now 400lb obese man. My daddy was voluntold not to re-enlist into his special operations job in the military when I was in high school. This was not do to any problems with job performance. He was well decorated and I missed the majority of my childhood with him while he was deployed. This "reccomendation" was due to his inability to meet the weight requirements of what was then termed "The Fat Boy Program". Both my mother and father spun out into a deep depression after his "voluntary honorable discharge" (to reiterate this was based solely on weight according to the BMI which changes almost yearly according to statistical averages with no consideration to bone mass, muscle mass or irregular girth). Our home was subsequently foreclosed on. My father began over eating and poured himself into church ministry to the point of never being home and gaining in excess of 200lbs. rendering him severely obese, diabetic, and in heart failure. My mother worked overtime, resented my father, ate even less, screamed at him for being fat and shipped my brother and I off to what she always described as her abusive parents with the intent of killing herself while we were away. Her suicide attempt failed, they got counseling and my parents marriage has survived. However, 25 years later the weight conversation continues. I always wanted to defend both of them and be like both of them and I guess I am, but not in a way that i thought could ever be pleasing to anyone. I am short like my mom (5"4 if we're being generous), but without her petite frame. In fact I have often jokingly been called man hands because I can easily palm a basketball and to this day have not met a man (including pro football players and wrestlers)with hands larger than mine. The smallest size I've ever worn was a 2 which for me is skin and bones and 145lbs. I achieved that weight in high school through anorexia and bulimia, in my early 20's through a massive,yet secret cocaine addiction. When I sobered up and married in my mid twenties I quickly began putting on weight. My grandparents never missed an opportunity to "encourage me to have weightloss surgery. I then had back to back babies between the years of 2006 and 2010. All were preeclmptic high risk pregnancies. I ballooned up to 260 and have not been able to get lower than the 200 mark since. The thing is, my daddy is and always has been my favorite person in the world, and I like the soul that has a 200lb body more than the soul with a still considered obese 150lb body. I am not sure I have ever been healthy. I used coke to stop inducing vomiting, I smoked to stop doing coke, I drank to stop being a bitch, and the only times in my life i have ever taken care of myself were when i was pregnant, but that was really for the beautiful Angel's within in me and not myself. Now , I can no longer have children, I'm still fat, I still drink and smoke to much, i refuse to return to an eating disorder or my very favorite lover cocaine, so what does this leave for me? Can I be healthy? Can I be better? Does anyone really care what I have to offer or what substance I might have to give since I'm fat?

May 14th

Christen Howard

I tripped into you about 2 weeks ago when I stumbled across Of Mess and Moxie. I subsequently purchased 3 extra Audible credits(because who am I to pass up a good deal)and dove headlong into For The Love. I immediately began fan girl stalking you! I could not believe that there was any other person out there remotely like me. I often refer to myself as a recovering Southern Baptist. I have was ostrisized from the church for having the audacity to say things like, "listening to Renegade by Styxx on the way to Sunday School was a worshipful experience, that the term Son of God might be interpreted more fully as unique of God, and that the Bible while holy and important was not the final word. We are blessed with the holy trinity and should not turn the sculptures into an idol. God is still moving and still speaking! My love for Jesus has not waivered, but I have yet to find a body outside of this podcast that allows for the searching and questioning that the scriptures encourage. Thank you for your bravery! This 2 needs to feel accepted and not alone.

Apr 18th
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