Freakonomics Radio

Why does an 18th-century Christian oratorio lend such comfort to our own turbulent times? Stephen Dubner sets out for Dublin to tell the story of George Frideric Handel’s Messiah. (Part one of “Making Messiah.”) SOURCES:Charles King, political scientist at Georgetown University.Katrine Nyland Sørensen, Danish broadcaster, host of Handel's Messiah - The Advent Calendar.Mark Risinger, teacher at St. Bernard's School.Michael and Aileen Casey, Dublin conservationists.Proinnsías Ó Duinn, conductor and music director of Our Lady's Choral Society.Stuart Kinsella, tenor soloist and consort singer. RESOURCES:Every Valley: The Desperate Lives and Troubled Times That Made Handel's Messiah, by Charles King (2024)."Two Men Wrote ‘Messiah.’ You Know One of Them." by Charles King (New York Times, 2024)."On Fishamble Street, family lives among four centuries of relatives’ keepsakes," by Zuzia Whelan (Dublin Inquirer, 2018).Hallelujah: The Story of a Musical Genius & the City That Brought His Masterpiece, by Jonathan Bardon (2016).George Frideric Handel: A Life with Friends, by Ellen Harris (2014).Handel: The Man & His Music, by Jonathan Keates (2010)."Handel's Messiah," performed by The London Symphony Orchestra (2007).Handel's Messiah The Advent Calendar, podcast series. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Macy’s wants to recapture its glorious past. The author of the Wimpy Kid books wants to rebuild his dilapidated hometown. We just want to listen in. (Part two of a two-part series, first published in 2024) SOURCES:Mark Cohen, former professor and director of retail studies at Columbia Business School.Will Coss, vice president and executive producer of Macy’s Studios.Jeff Kinney, author, cartoonist, and owner of An Unlikely Story Bookstore and Café.Tony Spring, chairman and C.E.O. of Macy’s Inc. RESOURCES:"How Macy’s CEO Tony Spring Is Turning the Retailer Around," by Suzanne Kapner (The Wall Street Journal, 2025).“NBC Ready to Pay Triple to Gobble Up Thanksgiving Parade Broadcast Rights,” by Joe Flint (The Wall Street Journal, 2024).“How Macy’s Set Out to Conquer the Department Store Business — and Lost,” by Daphne Howland (Retail Dive, 2022).An Unlikely Story Bookstore and Café. EXTRAS:“Can the Macy’s Parade Save Macy’s?” series by Freakonomics Radio (2024). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The iconic department store calls the parade its “gift to the nation.” With 30 million TV viewers, it’s also a big moneymaker — at least we think it is: when it comes to parade economics, Macy’s is famously tight-lipped. In this 2024 episode, we try to loosen them up. (Part one of a two-part series.) SOURCES:John Cheney, carpenter at Macy’s Studios.Will Coss, vice president and executive producer of Macy’s Studios.Jeff Kinney, author, cartoonist, and owner of An Unlikely Story Bookstore and Café.Kevin Lynch, vice president of global helium at Messer.Jen Neal, executive vice president of live events and specials for NBCUniversal Entertainment.Tony Spring, chairman and C.E.O. of Macy’s Inc.Jessica Tisch, New York City police commissioner, former commissioner of the New York City Department of Sanitation.Dawn Tolson, executive director of Citywide Event Coordination and Management and the Street Activity Permit Office for the City of New York. RESOURCES:Macy’s: The Store. The Star. The Story., by Robert M. Grippo (2009).History of Macy’s of New York, 1853-1919: Chapters in the Evolution of the Department Store, by Ralph M. Hower (1943).Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade. EXTRAS:"Helium," by The Economics of Everyday Things (2024). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A Trump executive order is giving retail investors more access to private markets. Is that a golden opportunity — or fool’s gold? SOURCES:Elisabeth de Fontenay, professor of law at Duke University.Steven Kaplan, professor of entrepreneurship and finance at the University of Chicago. RESOURCES:"Democratizing Access to Alternative Assets for 401(k) Investors," (The White House, 2025)."The (Heterogeneous) Economic Effects of Private Equity Buyouts," by Steven J. Davis, John Haltiwanger, Kyle Handley, Ben Lipsius, Josh Lerner, and Javier Miranda (Management Science, 2025)."Risk-Adjusted Returns of Private Equity Funds: A New Approach," by Arthur G. Korteweg and Stefan Nagel (The Review of Financial Studies, 2025)."The Effects of Management Buyouts on Operating Performance and Value," by Steven Kaplan (Journal of Financial Economics, 1989). EXTRAS:"The Biden Policy That Trump Hasn't Touched," by Freakonomics Radio (2025)."Should Companies Be Owned by Their Workers?" by Freakonomics Radio (2024)."Do You Know Who Owns Your Vet?" by Freakonomics Radio (2023)."Are Private Equity Firms Plundering the U.S. Economy?" by Freakonomics Radio (2023). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Thoroughbred auction prices keep setting records. But tracks are closing, gambling revenues are falling, and the sport is increasingly reliant on subsidies. Is that the kind of long shot anybody wants? (Part three of a series, “The Horse Is Us.”) SOURCES:Anne Archer Hinkle, owner and director of Hinkle Farms.Cormac Breathnach, senior director of sales operations at Keeneland.Emily Plant, thoroughbred researcher and statistician, associate professor of marketing at the University of Montana.Mark Taylor, president of Taylor Made Farm.Marshall Gramm, horse player, professor of economics at Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee.Richard Migliore, head racing analyst for Fox Sports and New York Racing Association, retired jockey.Sean Feld, bloodstock agent.Scott Heider, managing principal of Chartwell Capital, thoroughbred investor.Thomas Lambert, economist at the University of Louisville. RESOURCES:Death of a Racehorse: An American Story, by Katie Bo Lillis (2025)."State of the States 2025: The AGA Analysis of the Commercial Casino Industry," (American Gaming Association, 2025)."An Empirical Analysis of Reputation Effects and Network Centrality in a Multi-Agency Context," by Emily Plant (University of Kentucky, 2010).Calculated Bets: Computers, Gambling, and Mathematical Modeling to Win (Outlooks), by Steven Skiena (2001).Bill Oppenheim and Emily Plant's Thoroughbred Market Reports.Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The world has changed a good bit since Freakonomics was first published. In this live anniversary episode, Stephen Dubner tells Geoff Bennett of PBS NewsHour everything he has learned since then. Happy birthday, Freakonomics. SOURCES:Geoff Bennett, co-anchor and co-managing editor of PBS News Hour. RESOURCES:Freakonomics Twentieth Anniversary Edition: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything, by Stephen Dubner and Steve Levitt (2025). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How does Kentucky keep itself atop the thoroughbred industry? Is a champion stallion really worth $200,000 per date? And how many hands can one jockey have? (Part two of a series, “The Horse Is Us.”) SOURCES:Emily Plant, thoroughbred researcher and statistician.Jill Stowe, professor of economics at the University of Kentucky.Mark Taylor, president of Taylor Made Farm.Oscar Gonzales, vice chair of the California Horse Racing Board.Richard Migliore, head racing analyst for Fox Sports and New York Racing Association, retired jockey. RESOURCES:"Horse racing industry braces for crackdown on illegal immigration," by Ximena Bustillo (NPR, 2025)."Conceptualizing the Kentucky Horse Industry as an Economic Cluster," by Lori Garkovich (Bluegrass Equine Digest, 2009). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

For most of human history, horsepower made the world go. Then came the machines. So why are there still seven million horses in America? (Part one of a series, “The Horse Is Us.”) SOURCES:Ann N. Greene, historian of 19th century America, retired professor at the University of Pennsylvania.Constance Hunter, chief economist at the Economist Intelligence Unit.Elizabeth Bortuzzo, professional horse rider.Mark Paul, professor of economics at Rutgers University.Peter Frankopan, professor of global history at Oxford History. RESOURCES:"2023 Economic Impact Study of the U.S. Horse Industry," (American Horse Council Foundation, 2024).Riding to Arms, by Charles Caramello (2022).The Horse in the City, by Clay McShane and Joel Tarr (2011).Horses at Work, by Ann Norton Greene (2008). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Spotify, Oracle, and Comcast have each recently announced they’re going with co-C.E.O.s. In this 2023 episode, we dig into the research and hear firsthand stories of triumph and disaster. Also: lessons from computer programmers, Simon and Garfunkel, and bears versus alligators.   SOURCES:Jim Balsillie, retired chairman and co-C.E.O. of Research In Motion.Mike Cannon-Brookes, co-founder and C.E.O. of Atlassian.Scott Farquhar, co-founder and former co-C.E.O. of Atlassian.Marc Feigen, C.E.O. advisor.Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, professor of management studies and senior associate dean at the Yale School of Management and founding president of the Chief Executive Leadership Institute.Laurie Williams, professor of computer science at North Carolina State University. RESOURCES:"Scott Farquhar to resign as joint CEO of Atlassian," by Jonathan Barrett (The Guardian, 2024)."Is It Time to Consider Co-C.E.O.s?" by Marc A. Feigen, Michael Jenkins, and Anton Warendh (Harvard Business Review, 2022)."The Costs and Benefits of Pair Programming," by Alistair Cockburn and Laurie Williams (2000)."Strengthening the Case for Pair Programming," by Laurie Williams, Robert R. Kessler, Ward Cunningham, and Ron Jeffries (IEEE Software, 2000). EXTRAS:"The Secret Life of a C.E.O.," series by Freakonomics Radio (2018). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The U.S. has a physician shortage, created in part by a century-old reform that shut down bad medical schools. But why haven’t we filled the gap? Why are some physicians so unhappy? And which is worse: a bad doctor or no doctor at all? SOURCES:Karen Clay, professor of economics and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University.Rochelle Walensky, physician-scientist and former director of the CDC. RESOURCES:"Medical School Closures, Market Adjustment, and Mortality in the Flexner Report Era," by Karen Clay, Grant Miller, Margarita Portnykh, and Ethan Schmick (National Bureau of Economic Research, 2025)."Application Overload — A Call to Reduce the Burden of Applying to Medical School," by Rochelle Walensky and Loren Walensky (New England Journal of Medicine, 2025)."Challenges to the Future of a Robust Physician Workforce in the United States," by Rochelle Walensky and Nicole McCann (New England Journal of Medicine, 2025)."The first step to addressing the physician shortage," by Rochelle Walensky and Nicole McCann (STAT, 2025)."Physician Workforce: Projections, 2022-2037," (National Center for Health Workforce Analysis, 2024).“Projected Estimates of African American Medical Graduates of Closed Historically Black Medical Schools,” by Kendall Campbell, Irma Corral, Jhojana Infante Linares, and Dmitry Tumin (JAMA Network, 2020)."Medical Education in the United States and Canada," by Abraham Flexner (The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, 1910). EXTRAS:"Is the Air Traffic Control System Broken?" series by Freakonomics Radio (2025)."Are You Ready for the Elder Swell?" by Freakonomics Radio (2025)."Are Private Equity Firms Plundering the U.S. Economy?" by Freakonomics Radio (2023). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

For the 20th anniversary of Freakonomics, Debbie Millman of Design Matters interviews Stephen Dubner about his upbringing, his writing career, and why it's important to “swing your swing.” Plus: a sneak peek at a new project. SOURCES:Debbie Millman, writer and host of Design Matters with Debbie Millman. RESOURCES:"Stephen J. Dubner," by Design Matters with Debbie Millman (2025).Turbulent Souls: A Catholic Son's Return To His Jewish Family, by Stephen Dubner (1999)."Choosing My Religion," by Stephen Dubner (New York Times, 1996). EXTRAS:"In Search of the Real Adam Smith," by Freakonomics Radio (2022). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Arthur Brooks, an economist and former head of the American Enterprise Institute, believes that there is only one remedy for our political polarization: love. In this 2021 episode, we ask if Brooks is a fool for thinking this — and if perhaps you are his kind of fool? SOURCES:Arthur Brooks, professor of public and nonprofit leadership at Harvard University. RESOURCES:“Vital Statistics on Congress,” by Molly Reynolds and Naomi Maehr (Brookings Institute, 2024).Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence, by Anna Lembke (2021).“Reading Too Much Political News Is Bad for Your Well-Being,” by Arthur Brooks (The Atlantic, 2020).Love Your Enemies: How Decent People Can Save America from the Culture of Contempt, by Arthur Brooks (2019).“This 75-Year Harvard Study Found the 1 Secret to Leading a Fulfilling Life,” by Melanie Curtin (Inc., 2017).The Conservative Heart: How to Build a Fairer, Happier, and More Prosperous America, by Arthur Brooks (2015).“Grin and Bear It: The Influence of Manipulated Facial Expression on the Stress Response,” by Tara Kraft and Sarah Pressman (Psychological Science, 2012). EXTRAS:“Why Is U.S. Media So Negative?” by Freakonomics Radio (2021). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Soccer leagues around the world use a promotion-and-relegation system to reward the best teams and punish the worst. We ask whether American sports fans would enjoy a similar system. (Part two of a two-part series.) SOURCES:Domonique Foxworth, sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.Stefan Szymanski, professor of sport management at the University of Michigan.Victor Matheson, professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross. RESOURCES:"'Root, root, root for the home team" did TV kill minor league baseball in the 1950s?" by Stefan Szymanski (University of Michigan, 2025)."European and North American Sports Differences (?): A Quarter Century on," by Stefan Szymanski (Principles and Paradoxes of Sports Economics, 2024).National Pastime: How Americans Play Baseball and the Rest of the World Plays Soccer, by Stefan Szymanski and Andrew Zimbalist (2006). EXTRAS:"When Is a Superstar Just Another Employee? (Update)," by Freakonomics Radio (2025)."The Longest Long Shot," by Freakonomics Radio (2016). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The N.F.L. is a powerful cartel with imperial desires. College football is about to undergo a financial reckoning. So maybe they should team up? (Part one of a two-part series.) SOURCES:DeMaurice Smith, former executive director of the National Football League Players Association.Domonique Foxworth, sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.Jeffrey Kessler, partner at the law firm of Winston & Strawn.Oliver Luck, sports executive and consultant.Victor Matheson, professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross. RESOURCES:Turf Wars: The Fight for the Soul of America's Game, by DeMaurice Smith (2025)."Is there a Case for Subsidizing Sports Stadiums?" by Victor Matheson (Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, 2018). EXTRAS:"America’s Hidden Duopoly," by Freakonomics Radio (2018)."Should the U.S. Merge With Mexico?" by Freakonomics Radio (2014). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode we first published in 2021, the political scientist Yuen Yuen Ang argues that different forms of government create different styles of corruption — and that the U.S. and China have more in common than we’d like to admit. SOURCES:Yuen Yuen Ang, professor of political science at Johns Hopkins University. RESOURCES:"China’s Anti-Graft Show Is Educational, With Unintended Lessons," by Li Yuan (The New York Times, 2022).China’s Gilded Age: The Paradox of Economic Boom and Vast Corruption, by Yuen Yuen Ang (2020)."A Fair Assessment of China’s IP Protection," by Shang-Jin Wei and Xinding Yu (Project Syndicate, 2019).The Bankers' New Clothes: What's Wrong with Banking and What to Do about It, by Anat Admati (2013)."A Fistful of Dollars: Lobbying and the Financial Crisis," by Deniz Igan, Prachi Mishra, and Thierry Tressel (2011). EXTRAS:"China Is Run by Engineers. America Is Run by Lawyers." by Freakonomics Radio (2025).American Culture series by Freakonomics Radio (2021). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In his new book “Breakneck,” Dan Wang argues that the U.S. has a lot to learn from China. He also says that “no two peoples are more alike.” We have questions. SOURCES:Dan Wang, research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, author of Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future. RESOURCES:Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future, by Dan Wang (2025).The Anaconda in the Chandelier: Writings on China, by Perry Link (2025)."Is the U.S. Ready for the Next War?" by Dexter Filkins (The New Yorker, 2025)."How smartphones made Shenzhen China’s innovation capital," by Dan Wang (2016).How China Escaped the Poverty Trap, by Yuen Yuen Ang (2016).The Art of Not Being Governed, by Jame Scott (2009). EXTRAS:"The Engineering State and the Lawyerly Society: Dan Wang on his new book 'Breakneck,'" by the Sinica Podcast (2025)."Is the U.S. Really Less Corrupt Than China?" by Freakonomics Radio (2021). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A lot of jobs in the modern economy don’t pay a living wage, and some of those jobs may be wiped out by new technologies. So what’s to be done? We revisit an episode from 2016 for a potential solution. SOURCES:Erik Brynjolfsson, professor of economics at Stanford University.Evelyn Forget, professor of economics and community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.Sam Altman, C.E.O. of OpenAI.Robert Gordon, professor emeritus of economics at Northwestern University.Greger Larson, professor of archeology at the University of Oxford. RESOURCES:"Here's what a Sam Altman-backed basic income experiment found," by Megan Cerullo (CBS News, 2024).Utopia for Realists, by Rutger Bregman. The Correspondent (2016).The Second Machine Age, by Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee (2014)."The Town With No Poverty: Using Health Administration Data To Revisit Outcomes of a Canadian Guaranteed Annual Income Field Experiment," by Evelyn Forget (Canadian Public Policy, 2011)."The Negative Income Tax and the Evolution of U.S. Welfare Policy," by Robert Moffitt (Journal of Economic Perspectives, 2003).Capitalism and Freedom, by Milton Freidman (2002)."Lesson from the Income Maintenance Experiments," (Federal Reserve Bank of Boston and The Brookings Institution, 1986).Law, Legislation and Liberty, Volume 3: The Political Order of A Free People, by Frederick Hayek (1981)."Daniel Moynihan and President-elect Nixon: How charity didn't begin at home," by Peter Passell and Leonard Ross (New York Times, 1973)."Income Maintenance Programs," (Hearings Before The Subcommittee On Fiscal Policy Of The Joint Economic Committee Congress Of The United States, 1968). EXTRAS:"President Nixon Unveils the Family Assistance Program," (1969)."Milton Friedman interview with William F Buckley Jr.," (1968)."Martin Luther King Jr. advocates for Guaranteed Income at Stanford," (1967). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What does it take to “play 3D chess at 250 miles an hour”? And how far will $12.5 billion of “Big, Beautiful” funding go toward modernizing the F.A.A.? (Part two of a two-part series.) SOURCES:David Strayer, professor of cognition and neural science at the University of Utah.Dorothy Robyn, senior fellow at I.T.I.F.Ed Bastian, C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.Ed Bolen, president and C.E.O. of the National Business Aviation Association.John Strong, professor of finance and economics at the William and Mary School of Business.Kenneth Levin, retired air traffic controller.Olivia Grace, former product manager at Slack.Polly Trottenberg, former deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation. RESOURCES:“An Air Traffic Controller Speaks Out About Newark Airport,” by The Journal (2025)."Why Did Air Traffic Control Reform Efforts Fail (Again)?" by Jeff Davis (Eno Center for Transportation, 2023)."Supertaskers: Profiles in extraordinary multitasking ability," by Jason Watson and David Strayer (Psychonomic Bulletin & Review, 2021).Managing the Skies: Public Policy, Organization, and Financing of Air Traffic Management, by John Strong and Clinton Oster (2016). EXTRAS:"Multitasking Doesn't Work. So Why Do We Keep Trying?" by Freakonomics Radio (2024). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Flying in the U.S. is still exceptionally safe, but the system relies on outdated tech and is under tremendous strain. Six experts tell us how it got this way and how it can (maybe) be fixed. (Part one of a two-part series.) SOURCES:Dorothy Robyn, senior fellow at I.T.I.F.Ed Bastian, C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.John Strong, professor of finance and economics at the William and Mary School of Business.Kenneth Levin, retired air traffic controller.Polly Trottenberg, former deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation. RESOURCES:"Brand New Air Traffic Control System Plan," (Federal Aviation Administration, 2025).The Air Traffic Controller Workforce Imperative: Staffing Models and Their Implementation to Ensure Safe and Efficient Airspace Operations, by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (2025)."Annual Aviation Infrastructure Report: 2025," by Marc Scribner (Reason Foundation, 2025)."New air traffic academy died in Congress despite dire need for more staff," by Lori Aratani (The Washington Post, 2025)."The Real Problem With the FAA," by Dorothy Robyn (The Atlantic, 2025)."How Much Do Jet Aircraft Pay into the Airport and Airway Trust Fund to Fly from Dallas to D.C.?" by Ann Henebery, (Eno Center for Transportation, 2018).Managing the Skies, by John Strong and Clinton Oster (2016). EXTRAS:"Freakonomics Radio Takes to the Skies," series by Freakonomics Radio (2023)."In Praise of Maintenance," by Freakonomics Radio (2016). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Patrick Deneen, a political philosopher at Notre Dame, says yes. He was a Democrat for years, and has now come to be seen as an “ideological guru” of the Trump administration. But that only tells half the story ... SOURCES:Patrick Deneen, professor of political science at the University of Notre Dame. RESOURCES:"The Ideological Gurus Battling for the Soul of Trump World," by Joshua Chaffin and Zusha Elinson (Wall Street Journal, 2025)."Why the MAGA-DOGE coalition will hold," by Patrick Deneen (UnHerd, 2025)."‘I Don’t Want to Violently Overthrow the Government. I Want Something Far More Revolutionary,’" by Ian Ward (POLITICO, 2023).Regime Change: Toward a Postliberal Future, by Patrick Deneen (2023).Why Liberalism Failed, by Patrick Deneen (2018). EXTRAS:"In Search of the Real Adam Smith," series by Freakonomics Radio (2022). Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.