Brought to you by Pendo—The all-in-one platform for product-led companies building breakthrough digital experiences | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies | Masterworks—Invest in blue-chip art—Nilan Peiris is Chief Product Officer at Wise, one of the fastest-growing (and profitable) tech companies in the world. Wise allows anyone to send money in more than 60 currencies to over 160 countries at low cost, and throughout its history has grown primarily through word of mouth. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Tactical advice on driving word of mouth (WOM)• Strategies for measuring WOM• How NPS surveys helped Wise determine their growth and product strategy• How Wise incentivizes teams to do the hard things• The small change that generated a 3x increase in referrals• How Wise structures its product and growth teams—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-drive-word-of-mouth-nilan-peiris-cpo-of-wise/#transcript—Where to find Nilan Peiris:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/nilanp• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nilanpeiris/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nilan’s background(03:27) A brief overview of Wise(06:11) How word of mouth is measured(07:56) Why Wise leaned into WOM(10:21) Why Wise built their WOM motion using the NPS method(16:13) How WOM solves trust problems(18:55) How to get to 9 or 10 on the NPS scale(20:51) Determining what will wow users(21:31) Common missteps companies make when trying to drive WOM(23:24) Using the “working backward” method at Airbnb(25:45) How Wise is able to offer drastically lower money transfer fees (27:51) The three costs associated with moving money(32:02) Rational vs. irrational reasons behind recommendations(34:11) Prioritizing customer happiness(38:14) How Wise approaches experimentation(46:11) Thoughts on performance reviews and general analysis(48:06) How Wise provides a 10x better banking experience(51:57) Advice on how to approach word-of-mouth marketing(53:47) Building a culture of doing hard things(55:59) The macrostructure of international banking and where Wise fits in(57:54) How Wise solves for local regulations in their onboarding flow(1:01:49) How Wise structures teams(1:03:26) The small change that generated a 3x increase in referrals(1:08:01) Nilan’s philanthropic endeavors(1:09:13) Lightning round—Referenced:• Wise: https://wise.com/us/• Henry Chen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/henry-h-chen/• About NPS: https://www.productboard.com/blog/the-power-of-nps-in-your-product-strategy/• How Snow White helped Airbnb prove that storytelling is the most important skill in design: https://uxdesign.cc/how-airbnb-proved-that-storytelling-is-the-most-important-skill-in-design-15d04ac71039• Seth Godin: This Is How You Create a Remarkable Product: https://www.businessinsider.com/seth-godin-this-is-how-you-create-a-remarkable-product-2012-10• Discover the Spotify model: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/agile-at-scale/spotify• Beam: https://beam.org/• Affinity: https://affinityghana.com/• Crime and Punishment: https://www.amazon.com/Crime-Punishment-Volokhonsky-Translation-Classics/dp/0679734503• Midnight’s Children: https://www.amazon.com/Midnights-Children-Modern-Library-Novels/dp/0812976533• Barbie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1517268/• Arc browser: https://arc.net/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business—Itamar Gilad is a product coach, author, and speaker with over two decades of experience in senior product roles at Google, Microsoft, and various startups. He is also the author of Evidence-Guided: Creating High-Impact Products in the Face of Uncertainty and publishes a popular product management newsletter. In today’s episode, we discuss:• What it means to be “evidence-guided”• How to think about your KPIs as metric trees• How to prioritize ideas using the “confidence meter”• The GIST model for roadmapping• Common mistakes with ICE• Advice for using evidence to challenge gut-driven founders—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/becoming-evidence-guided-itamar-gilad-gmail-youtube-microsoft/#transcript—Where to find Itamar Gilad:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/ItamarGilad• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/itamargilad/• Website: https://itamargilad.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Itamar’s background(04:35) How his time working on Gmail shaped his philosophy of “opinion-based” development(08:35) Lessons from developing Gmail’s tabbed inbox (13:40) A brief overview of Itamar’s book, Evidence-Guided(14:30) Balancing founder creativity with an evidence-based approach(17:32) Advice on how to push back against founders(19:36) Signs you aren’t as evidence-guided as you may think(21:13) Itamar’s GIST model for becoming more evidence-guided(23:51) How to set overarching goals using his “value exchange loop”(28:45) North star metrics vs. KPIs(33:47) Using “ICE” to assess the value of ideas(37:39) Itamar’s confidence meter(44:28) Speed of delivery vs. speed of discovery(46:14) How to apply Itamar’s frameworks based on company type and stage(49:09) First steps in becoming more evidence-guided(50:21) Next steps in testing(55:41) The task layer in the GIST framework(1:02:54) Thoughts on roadmapping(1:04:56) How OKRs fit into the whole picture(1:07:11) Lightning round—Referenced:• Itamar’s presentation slides: https://itamargilad.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Podcast-Slides.pdf• What differentiates the highest-performing product teams | John Cutler (Amplitude, The Beautiful Mess): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-differentiates-the-highest-performing-product-teams-john-cutler-amplitude-the-beautiful-mess/• Evidence-Guided: Creating High-Impact Products in the Face of Uncertainty: https://itamargilad.com/book-evidence-guided/• The co-founders of Google in Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/profile/larry-page-and-sergey-brin• Kanban: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• The ultimate guide to OKRs | Christina Wodtke (Stanford): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-okrs-christina-wodtke-stanford/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• The ultimate guide to A/B testing | Ronny Kohavi (Airbnb, Microsoft, Amazon): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing-ronny-kohavi-airbnb-microsoft-amazon/• ICE framework: https://growthmethod.com/ice-framework/• Sean Ellis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanellis/• RICE scoring model: https://www.productplan.com/glossary/rice-scoring-model/• Idea Prioritization with ICE and the Confidence Meter: https://itamargilad.com/the-tool-that-will-help-you-choose-better-product-ideas/• Assumptions Mapping: https://designsprintkit.withgoogle.com/methodology/phase2-define/assumptions-mapping• What is Dog Fooding, Fish Fooding a Product?: https://matt-rickard.com/fishfooding-dogfooding-product• SVPG books: https://www.svpg.com/books/• The Lean series: https://theleanstartup.com/the-lean-series• Dreaming Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/c/DreamingSpanish• ElevenLabs: https://elevenlabs.io/• Lennybot: https://www.lennybot.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders—Christopher Lochhead is a 14-time #1 bestselling author, top podcaster, and former 3x public tech company CMO and has been an advisor to over 50 VC-backed tech startups. He is best known as a “godfather” of category design, and Adobe named his book Play Bigger one of “the five greatest marketing books of all time.” In this episode, we discuss:• What exactly category design is• The “Frame It, Name It, Claim It” framework• How to go about designing your category• Why “languaging” is so powerful• Rating yourself on the category design scorecard• Why Chris considers “product-market fit” a dangerous concept• Chris’s spicy take on positioning• The “better trap” and why it’s crucial to avoid it• The magic triangle of product, company, and category• How to embrace negative feedback• Why the greatest time in the history of innovation is now—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-become-a-category-pirate-christopher-lochhead-author-of-play-bigger-niche-down-category/—Where to find Christopher Lochhead:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lochhead• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherlochhead/• Website: https://www.categorypirates.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Chris’s background(05:08) Why Chris shares his negative criticism on his website(11:58) A simple explanation of category design(18:00) How Purell mastered category design(23:07) What Gong got right (and wrong)(29:01) The “better trap” and why it’s crucial to avoid it(38:51) Reflective thinking vs. reflexive thinking(44:45) How Lomi created a revolutionary solution for food waste (48:50) The “Frame It, Name It, Claim It” framework (49:08) The concept of “languaging” (54:00) Examples of languaging (59:19) Spend more time on the problem than the solution(1:01:37) The power of “backcasting”(1:07:33) The truth behind building legendary brands(1:10:39) The problem with product-market fit(1:16:11) Chris’s spicy take on positioning(1:19:20) “Damming the demand”(1:24:49) Laws from Chris’s book The 22 Laws of Category Design(1:29:46) Word of mouth: the most powerful form of marketing(1:34:05) Chris’s closing message to listeners(1:39:01) Lightning round—Referenced:• Rick Rubin Says Trust Your Gut, Not Your Audience: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rick-rubin-says-trust-your-gut-not-your-audience/id1570872415?i=1000606447333• How to identify your ideal customer profile (ICP): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer• Grant Cardone on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GrantCardone• Tai Lopez on Twitter: https://twitter.com/tailopez• The Difference Between a First Mover and a Category Creator: https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-difference-between-a-first-mover-and-a-category-creator• Gojo Industries: https://www.gojo.com/• Gartner reports: https://www.gartner.com/• Forrester reports: https://www.forrester.com/bold• Gong: https://www.gong.io/• Clari: https://www.clari.com/• Threads, Instagram’s “Twitter Killer,” Has Arrived: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/technology/threads-app-meta-twitter-killer.html• Kevin Maney: https://kevinmaney.com/• Red Bull cola: https://www.redbull.com/int-en/theorganics/organics-simply-cola• Microsoft Copied Apple’s Successful Retail Plan. Now It’s Shutting the Whole Thing Down: https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/microsoft-copied-apples-successful-retail-plan-now-its-shutting-whole-thing-down.html• A New Way to Think, with World’s #1 Management Thinker Roger Martin: https://lochhead.com/roger-martin/• A New Way to Think: Your Guide to Superior Management Effectiveness: https://www.amazon.com/New-Way-Think-Management-Effectiveness/dp/164782351X• RJ Scaringe on Twitter: https://twitter.com/rjscaringe• Lomi: https://lomi.com/products/lomi• Otis elevators: https://www.otis.com/en/us• How to build a breakthrough … the secret of Backcasting: https://medium.com/@m2jr/how-to-build-a-breakthrough-3071b6415b06• John Bielenberg’s website: https://www.thinknado.com/• Eddie Yoon: https://www.eddiewouldgrow.com/• Marc Andreessen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/pmarca• Snow Leopard: How Legendary Writers Create a Category of One: https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Leopard-Legendary-Writers-Category/dp/1956934456• Play Bigger: How Pirates, Dreamers, and Innovators Create and Dominate Markets: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate-ebook/dp/B015MOJ80G• Niche Down: How to Become Legendary by Being Different: https://www.amazon.com/Niche-Down-Become-Legendary-Different-ebook/dp/B07FLKJJQQ• The 22 Laws of Category Design: Name & Claim Your Niche, Share Your POV, and Move The World from Where It Is to Somewhere Different: https://www.amazon.com/Laws-Category-Design-Somewhere-Different/dp/195693457X/• An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/an-inside-look-at-deels-unprecedented-growth-meltem-kuran-berkowitz-head-of-growth/• Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah: https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Adventures-Reluctant-Richard-Bach/dp/0440204887• What They Don’t Teach You at Harvard Business School: Notes from a Street-Smart Executive: https://www.amazon.com/What-Teach-Harvard-Business-School/dp/0553345834• Inventing Anna on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81008305• The rise and fall and rise of Tony Eltherington: https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2017/04/27/rise-and-fall-and-rise-tony-eltherington—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams—Oji Udezue is Chief Product Officer at Typeform and has held leadership roles at Twitter (Head of Product for Creation and Conversation), Calendly (CPO), and Atlassian (Head of Product for communication tools). He is well-known for bringing a product-led-growth (PLG) mindset to the companies he joins. Additionally, Oji mentors startups, is a Managing Partner at the Kernel Fund, and writes online about product management. In this episode, we discuss:• Oji’s “Where to Fish to Land a Unicorn” and “Zone of Benefit” frameworks• Why you need to find the “sharpest” problem• How to operationalize continuous customer discovery• Tips on optimizing onboarding flows• Freemium vs. gated offerings in PLG• Tactical strategies for making your product more viral• The concept of “forest time” and how it can provide clarity in your work—Find the transcript for this episode and all past episodes at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/episodes/. Today’s transcript will be live by 8 a.m. PT.—Where to find Oji Udezue:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/ojiudezue• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ojiudezue/• Substack: https://substack.com/@ojiudezue—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Oji’s background(03:38) Oji’s “Where to Fish to Land a Unicorn” framework(05:26) Workflow quadrants(09:30) How product people can push frequency (12:28) Oji’s “Zone of Benefit” framework(14:49) How to find your ICPs(15:33) ICPs at Twitter(20:20) Oji’s philosophy on frameworks(22:31) Oji’s upcoming book(24:34) An explanation of “sharp problems”(28:31) Signs your problem is “sharp enough”(31:17) Discovery vs. continuous conversations(35:08) Customer listening(38:31) Onboarding fundamentals(43:49) Activated user milestones(45:47) The power of network effects(50:15) An explanation of virality and how to increase it(56:32) How to use “forest time” to zoom out and see problems in a new way(1:00:53) Lessons from Oji’s time at Bridgewater Associates(1:05:07) Why R&D teams need a larger system beyond Agile and design(1:06:57) Lightning round—Referenced:• Where to fish to land a unicorn: https://ojiudezue.medium.com/where-to-fish-to-land-a-unicorn-in-b2b-saas-9bc93c96152c• Coda: https://coda.io/• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Finding high-frequency customers (use cases): https://ojiudezue.medium.com/finding-high-frequency-customers-use-cases-53773a753bb5• Evernote: https://evernote.com/• Industry PM conference: https://www.industryconference.com/• Typeform: https://www.typeform.com/• Build better products with continuous product discovery | Teresa Torres: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/build-better-products-with-continuous-product-discovery-teresa-torres/• Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• Dan Hockenmaier on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danhockenmaier• Seth Godin’s blog: https://seths.blog/• A key ritual: Forest time: https://ojiudezue.substack.com/p/a-key-ritual-forest-time• Principles: https://www.principles.com/• Dot Collector: https://principlesus.com/dot-collector-real-time-feedback/• The Halo Effect: . . . and the Eight Other Business Delusions That Deceive Managers: https://www.amazon.com/Halo-Effect-Business-Delusions-Managers/dp/1476784035/• Dune: https://www.amazon.com/Dune-Penguin-Galaxy-Frank-Herbert/dp/0143111582• Foundation: https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-3-Book-Boxed-Set-Empire/dp/0593499573• Foundation on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/foundation/umc.cmc.5983fipzqbicvrve6jdfep4x3• Unlox: https://unlox.it/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mercury—the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Andy Johns is a former tech exec and VC who had a successful run at several startups—including Facebook, Twitter, Wealthfront, and Quora—but left it all behind a few years ago to take a new direction in life. Now a mental health advocate, he aids military veterans with PTSD, guides burnt-out high achievers to new paths, and shares his healing journey from childhood trauma and mental illness through his newsletter, Clues Dot Life. In this episode, we discuss:• Why Andy left his seven-figure VC career behind• The four-step process of deep personal transformation• When suffering is necessary vs. unnecessary• Tips for finding a good therapist• How a writing practice can help you heal• When you’re in need of radical transformation—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/when-enough-is-enough-andy-johns-ex-fb-twitter-quora/#transcript—Where to find Andy Johns:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/cluesdotlife• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewjohns/• Website: https://www.clues.life/• Newsletter: https://andyjohns.substack.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Andy’s background(04:45) His personal burnout story(12:55) The high incidence of mental health struggles in tech(14:41) Why Andy walked away from a seven-figure VC job(20:29) His work in mental health advocacy (23:32) The four-step process of deep personal transformation(31:40) The ego’s involvement(33:23) Necessary vs. unnecessary suffering(37:01) First steps in understanding your suffering(38:59) Advice on finding a therapist(42:11) How a writing practice can help you heal(43:47) Two methods for writing to gain self-understanding (47:47) Signs you’re dealing with more than just typical job stress(52:22) How to move into a place of self-compassion(57:16) The unpredictable timeline of healing (59:59) How to develop compassion for others(1:02:19) Why not everyone needs a radical transformation(1:04:10) The story of Pema Chodron’s transformation (1:06:06) What holds people back from making changes(1:13:29) Finding your own unique path to healing(1:17:32) Andy’s closing message to anyone feeling pulled toward a new chapter(1:18:59) How Andy is doing now—Referenced:• How to know when to stop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-know-when-to-stop• Heroic Hearts Project: https://heroicheartsproject.org/• Panic attacks and panic disorder: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/4451-panic-attack-panic-disorder• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748• Vipassana meditation: https://www.dhamma.org/en/index• The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/1577314808• Moby Dick: https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Dick-Herman-Melville/dp/1503280780• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech—Claire Butler was Figma’s first GTM hire and their 10th employee. She led Figma’s early GTM strategy from stealth through monetization. She also helped the team through the journey to find product-market fit and built the team that drove Figma’s unique bottom-up growth motion. Eight years later, as Senior Director of Marketing, she continues to lead Figma’s bottom-up growth motion, along with community, events, social, advocacy, and Figma for education. In this episode, we discuss:• An in-depth look at Figma’s bottom-up GTM motion• Why you need to start with individual contributors (ICs) loving your product• How to spread adoption within the organization• How “designer advocates” have played a critical role in Figma’s growth• The freemium strategy that drove massive growth for Figma• How to leverage product champions• When to leave stealth• Early-stage metrics, and why they are often unreliable• Advice for people looking to join a startup—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/an-inside-look-at-figmas-unique-gtm-motion-claire-butler-first-gtm-hire/#transcript—Where to find Claire Butler:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/clairetbutler• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clairetbutler/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Claire’s background(03:47) The huge branding decision that Claire made on day one at Figma(07:45) The most stressful memory of early days at Figma(09:55) Advice for people looking to join a startup(12:55) What a bottom-up go-to-market motion is(17:12) Figma’s unique approach to bottom-up GTM(18:52) Figma’s launch out of stealth (23:01) Signals vs. hard metrics in the early days (24:50) How Figma won over Microsoft(30:08) How to win over ICs(32:00) How to establish credibility(37:38) Customer obsession in action(41:11) Why getting users to love your product is so vital(44:01) How Figma used Twitter as its primary channel in the early days(49:06) Transparency and authenticity(49:52) GTM tactics at scale(52:09) “Little big updates” at Figma(54:16) Figma’s acquisition, and why it was one of the hardest days of Claire’s career(57:10) Figma’s core values(58:06) The Config conference(1:00:21) Spreading your product within the organization(1:02:09) The pricing tiers at Figma(1:07:35) The role of designer advocates(1:10:57) Design systems(1:16:12) Leveraging internal champions(1:17:53) Accelerating spread at scale(1:19:14) What types of companies are a good fit for bottom-up GTM(1:24:16) A summary of the bottom-up GTM model(1:25:27) Lightning round—Referenced:• Dylan Field on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/• John Lilly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnlilly/• Ivan Zhao on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao/• Xamarin: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/xamarin• Josef Müller-Brockmann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_M%C3%BCller-Brockmann• Datadog: https://www.datadoghq.com/• Coda: https://coda.io/• Oren’s Hummus on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/orenshummus/• Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/• How Coda builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-coda-builds-product• Dylan Field on Twitter: https://twitter.com/zoink• Dylan’s tweet: https://twitter.com/zoink/status/1566566649712431105• Little Big Updates: https://www.figma.com/blog/little-big-updates-august-2022/• Sho Kuwamoto on Twitter: https://twitter.com/skuwamoto• Kris Rasmussen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/kris_rasmussen• Config: https://config.figma.com/• Tom Lowry on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaslowry• Atomic Design: https://atomicdesign.bradfrost.com/• Figjam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/• Dev Mode: https://www.figma.com/dev-mode/• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kick-Ass-Humanity/dp/1250235375• Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts: https://www.amazon.com/Dare-Lead-Brave-Conversations-Hearts/dp/0399592520• 100 Foot Wave on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/100-foot-wave• Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-James-Clear-audiobook/dp/B07RFSSYBH• Noah Weiss on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-10-traits-of-great-pms-how-ai-will-impact-your-product-and-slacks-product-development-process/• How to create an exceptional coverage plan for your parental leave (Tamara Hinckley): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-create-an-exceptional-coverage—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Productroadmap.ai—AI to connect your roadmaps to revenue | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Tim Holley is VP of Product at Etsy where he leads the Etsy buyer experience. With a tenure spanning more than a decade, Tim has seen the company through many transitions (both in culture, in leadership, and in growth), and his team’s product changes have had a significant impact on buyer retention, conversion, and global expansion. In this episode, we discuss:• Lessons from navigating corporate culture shifts• How Etsy capitalized on the explosive growth of e-commerce during the pandemic• Marketplace learnings: when to focus on supply vs. demand, optimizing conversion, and more• How Etsy solves the “graduation problem”• Tips for hiring product managers—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/inside-etsys-product-growth-and-marketplace-evolution-tim-holley-vp-of-product/#transcript—Where to find Tim Holley:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timholley/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Tim’s background(04:23) Tim’s time away at SoulCycle and what led him back to Etsy(06:34) Lessons from the 2017 culture shift at Etsy(12:15) Etsy’s guiding principles (13:32) How Etsy adapted to increased demand during the early days of mask mandates(16:38) What Tim learned about managing stress with his team during the pandemic(18:46) Lessons from building a thriving marketplace(21:47) Prioritization at Etsy(24:37) Supply constraint vs. demand constraint (28:43) Conversion wins(33:27) Experimentation at Etsy(37:58) Acquisition and top-of-funnel tactics(39:44) The seller referral program(40:33) Etsy’s habit loop framework(44:11) How they set themselves apart from other marketplaces(51:23) Retaining sellers (53:23) The defunct Etsy studio(55:18) Running the product team(57:20) Who the decision maker is (1:01:20) What Tim looks for when hiring PMs (1:03:03) A reflection exercise Tim does with his teams(1:05:08) Lightning round—Referenced:• Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/• SoulCycle: https://www.soul-cycle.com/• Inside the Revolution at Etsy: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/25/business/etsy-josh-silverman.html• Ronny Kohavi on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing-ronny-kohavi-airbnb-microsoft-amazon/• How to Kickstart and Scale a Marketplace Business – Part 3: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-kickstart-and-scale-a-marketplace-911• Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World: https://www.amazon.com/Team-Teams-Rules-Engagement-Complex/dp/1591847486• Let My People Go Surfing: The Education of a Reluctant Businessman: https://www.amazon.com/Let-People-Surfing-Education-Businessman-Including/dp/0143109677• The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Broker-Robert-Moses-Fall/dp/0394720245• Yellowstone on Paramount+: https://www.paramountnetwork.com/shows/yellowstone• Nara Baby app: https://naraorganics.com/nara-baby-tracker• Huckleberry app: https://huckleberrycare.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech—Meltem Kuran Berkowitz is Head of Growth at Deel, which went from $0 to $300m in ARR in 3 years (fastest company in history to do so). Meltem joined Deel early to lead growth, and currently leads all of the growth and marketing teams including paid ads, content, product marketing, community, brand, and more. In this episode, we discuss:• How Deel found success leveraging low-cost growth channels• Why early awareness campaigns are a waste of time in B2B• How to create effective SEO content• Deel’s “traffic light” framework• When it makes sense to invest in paid ads• The art of structuring growth teams• Building a startup culture—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/an-inside-look-at-deels-unprecedented-growth-meltem-kuran-berkowitz-head-of-growth/#transcript—Where to find Meltem Kuran Berkowitz:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/meltemkuran• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meltem-kuran-berkowitz-4721114b—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Meltem’s background(04:21) What Deel does(06:32) How Meltem leverages low-cost growth channels(13:18) How to answer questions in a value-add way(14:52) Leveraging closed communities(15:48) Breaking down Deel’s impressive growth (16:33) SEO best practices(18:32) Deel’s “traffic light system” framework for publishing content(20:03) The step-by-step process of publishing an SEO article(21:55) How Deel structures their content team(23:18) Why you can’t cut corners when doing SEO(25:15) Businesses that should not invest in SEO(26:40) The growth channels Deel prioritized early on(32:12) Why Meltem is not a fan of early awareness campaigns for B2B businesses (33:54) What Notion did right with their ad campaigns(36:16) How Deel can help your company(38:15) Deel’s blog post that caught the attention of the IRS(40:06) Paid ads tips(42:12) Why acquisition channels are useless without a great product(44:19) How the pandemic helped drive growth at Deel(47:11) Structuring early growth teams(51:23) Building a startup culture(1:01:10) The story behind Meltem’s unique workspace(1:05:22) Closing thoughts on growth (1:06:05) Lightning round—Referenced:• Deel: https://www.deel.com/• Clearscope: https://www.clearscope.io/• Notion: https://www.notion.so/• Geoff Charles on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/velocity-over-everything-how-ramp-became-the-fastest-growing-saas-startup-of-all-time-geoff-charl/• Amp It Up: Leading for Hypergrowth by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, and Elevating Intensity: https://www.amazon.com/Amp-Unlocking-Hypergrowth-Expectations-Intensity/dp/1119836115• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com• How Will You Measure Your Life?: https://www.amazon.com/How-Will-Measure-Your-Life/dp/0062102419• Oppenheimer: https://www.oppenheimermovie.com/• The Summer I Turned Pretty on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NF4J7XW• Library stamps on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/library-stamp/s?k=library+stamp• Bloody Caesar recipe: https://www.liquor.com/recipes/bloody-caesar/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Bob Moesta is the co-creator of the Jobs To Be Done (JTBD) framework, a close collaborator of Clay Christensen, and CEO and founder of The Re-Wired Group. He has helped launch more than 3,500 new products, services, and businesses and built and sold several startups himself. He is also a fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute and a guest lecturer at the Harvard Business School, MIT Sloan School of Entrepreneurship, and Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. In this episode, we discuss:• What Snickers and Milky Way can teach us about JTBD• The various flavors of the JTBD framework• Best practices for implementing the framework• Advice on conducting interviews for B2B vs. B2C customers• Common mistakes people make when implementing JTBD• When not to use it—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta-co-creator-of-the-framework/#transcript—Where to find Bob Moesta:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/bmoesta• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobmoesta/• Website: http://www.therewiredgroup.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Bob’s background(04:04) A simple explanation of the Jobs To Be Done framework(07:29) Struggling moments and demand(09:51) Understanding the context behind pain points(11:14) Reducing friction in the sales process(14:46) How Autobooks improved their buying process and 4x’ed conversion(16:52) The six phases of the buying process(18:30) The JTBD interview process(21:55) How Bob’s TBI affected his reading/writing and how he is able to write books(22:02) Why people switch companies(27:18) Tips for JTBD interviewing(30:07) Why you should not have a discussion guide(32:48) The danger of looking at the customer through the product(33:53) First steps in applying the JTBD framework(36:25) Signs people are ready for a change(37:43) Bob’s “layers of language”(40:15) Examples of companies with a broad adoption of JTBD(43:59) The different flavors of JTBD and common mistakes to avoid when implementing it(48:19) Bob’s work with Clay Christensen on JTBD theory(51:05) When not to use JTBD(53:40) Common misconceptions about the framework(55:55) What compelled Bob to spend so much of his life on JTBD(58:07) Three big takeaways(59:07) Lightning round—Referenced:• Jason Fried on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-fried/• Des Traynor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/destraynor• Southern New Hampshire University: https://degrees.snhu.edu/• Paul LeBlanc on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-j-leblanc-6a17749/• Demand-Side Sales 101: Stop Selling and Help Your Customers Make Progress: https://www.amazon.com/Demand-Side-Sales-101-Customers-Progress/dp/1544509987• Autobooks: https://www.autobooks.co/• Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/• Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/• The Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University: https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/• Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/• Michael Horn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbhorn/• Ethan Bernstein on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethanbernstein/• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805• William Edwards Deming on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming• Basecamp: https://basecamp.com/• Sriram and Aarthi on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/hot-takes-and-techno-optimism-from-techs-top-power-couple-sriram-and-aarthi/• Genichi Taguchi: https://www.qualitygurus.com/genichi-taguchi/• Tony Ulwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonyulwick/• The Clayton Christensen Institute on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clayton-christensen-institute/• Shape Up: https://basecamp.com/shapeup• The End of Average: Unlocking Our Potential by Embracing What Makes Us Different: https://www.amazon.com/End-Average-Unlocking-Potential-Embracing/dp/0062358375• The Big Bang Theory on TBS: https://www.tbs.com/shows/the-big-bang-theory/watch-now• Oppenheimer: https://www.oppenheimermovie.com/• Kyota massage chairs at Costco: https://www.costco.com/massage-chairs-cushions.html?brand=Kyota&refine=%7C%7CBrand_attr-Kyota• Paul Adams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauladams/• Matt Hodges on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattnhodges/• Andrew Glaser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glaserandrew/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.—Camille Hearst is Head of Fan Monetization at Spotify, where she finds new ways for fans to connect and for artists to monetize. Previously she was Head of Product for Creators at Patreon, Product Marketing Manager at YouTube, the second Product Manager at iTunes, and VP of Product at Hailo. She also co-founded a company called Kit, which was acquired by Patreon in 2018. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• Advice on building a successful career as a creator• Her take on the future of the creator economy• The best and worst parts of building products for music artists• What Apple product teams do differently• The story of meeting Steve Jobs• Advice for founders going through acquisitions—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/monetizing-passions-scaling-marketplaces-and-stories-from-a-creator-economy-vet-camille-hearst/—Where to find Camille Hearst:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/camillionz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chearst/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Camille’s background(04:24) Camille’s role as Head of Fan Monetization at Spotify(07:40) The best and worst parts of working with artists(14:15) Trends in the content creation world(19:29) Advice on building a successful career as a creator(21:32) The importance of content curators(22:30) Camille’s startup, Kit (24:49) Advice on selling your startup(28:28) The supply side of marketplaces(34:37) How Camille became the second PM at iTunes (35:43) The story of meeting Steve Jobs(43:01) Apple’s style of product management(45:54) Opportunities on the platform side of content creation(48:34) Camille’s early years growing up in a creative tech family(53:45) Favorite frameworks(52:32) Lightning round—Referenced:• Adam Fishman on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-build-a-high-performing-growth-team-adam-fishman-patreon-lyft-imperfect-foods/• The Federal Reserve says Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour boosted the economy. One market research firm estimates she could add $5 billion: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/taylor-swift-eras-tour-boosted-economy-tourism-federal-reserve-how-much-money-made/• Yelp coins the “Beyoncé bump” for the economic halo created by the pop star’s Renaissance Tour: https://fortune.com/2023/07/19/beyonce-renaissance-tour-economic-impact/• Lenny Bot: https://www.lennybot.com/• YouTube streamer faces riot charge after Union Square Park erupts in chaos: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/04/nyregion/union-square-kai-cenat-twitch-giveaway.html• Michelle Phan on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MICHELLEPHA• Rover: https://www.rover.com/• Airbnb’s product management shift: the view from product leaders: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/airbnbs-product-management-shift-the-viewpoint-of-product-leaders/#• Hiroki Asai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hiroki-asai-a44137110/• The Really Good Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-really-good-podcast/id1697794816• Nichiren Buddhism: https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/subdivisions/nichiren_1.shtml• What’s Love Got to Do with It on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/whats-love-got-to-do-with-it-f996a307-ee91-4550-8829-3694f55e0189• Marty Cagan on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/• Why you should eat the frog first: https://asana.com/resources/eat-the-frog• Draw the owl: https://review.firstround.com/draw-the-owl-and-other-company-values-you-didnt-know-you-should-have• The Three-Body Problem: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032• Kindred: https://www.amazon.com/Kindred-Octavia-Butler/dp/0807083690• A Wrinkle in Time: https://www.amazon.com/Wrinkle-Time-Quintet/dp/0312367546/• Foundation on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/foundation/umc.cmc.5983fipzqbicvrve6jdfep4x3• Battlestar Galactica on SyFy: https://www.syfy.com/battlestar-galactica• Hijack on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/hijack/umc.cmc.1dg08zn0g3zx52hs8npoj5qe3• Shadow and Bone on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80236319• Afrobeats playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1EQqFPe2ux3rbj• “Calm Down” by Rema on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/37iaWiKMa9YBbEDlw5c3Qh—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster | Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app—Austin Hay is currently Head of Marketing Technology at Ramp and was previously the VP of Business Operations at Runway, the VP of Growth at mParticle, and the fourth employee at the unicorn Branch Metrics. In 2022 he sold his online course, the Marketing Technology Academy, to Reforge, where he now teaches Martech and has a program launching in the fall. He’s consulted on Martech and growth for companies including Notion, Airbnb, Robinhood, Postmates, Walmart, JPMorgan Chase, and many others. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• What exactly marketing technology is• What a Martech person can do for your business• When to hire a Martech person and what to look for• Austin’s favorite tools• Advice for doing attribution• Frameworks on tooling, systems, and building vs. buying• How to apply the concept of “thinking gray” to make better decisions in work and life—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-martech-austin-hay-reforge-ramp-runway/#transcript—Where to find Austin Hay:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/austinahay/• Threads: @austinahay—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Austin’s background(03:58) What marketing technology is(06:17) The difference between typical growth roles and Martech(10:23) Signs you need a Martech person on your team(14:03) Hiring and placing a Martech person in B2B, B2C, and B2B2C businesses(21:15) A day in the life of a Martech professional (25:05) Marketing technology vs. marketing operations (31:14) Tooling recommendations(41:49) The never-ending struggle of how to do attribution well(50:47) Emerging tools and platforms to keep an eye on(55:26) MMM modeling(57:47) What to look for when hiring a Martech professional, and Austin’s favorite interview questions(1:02:45) His red flags for companies and “false flags” for potential hires(1:04:51) His favorite frameworks(1:13:37) Lightning round—Referenced:• Siqi Chen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siqic/• Austin’s marketing technology course on Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/courses/marketing-technology• Notion: https://www.notion.so/• Sri Batchu on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-ramp-sri-batchu-ramp-instacart-opendoor/• Cody Morgan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cody-morgan/• Braze: https://www.braze.com• Marketo: https://business.adobe.com/products/marketo/adobe-marketo.html• Mparticle: https://www.mparticle.com/• Segment: https://segment.com/• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/• Reverse ETL: a primer: https://medium.com/memory-leak/reverse-etl-a-primer-4e6694dcc7fb• RudderStack: https://www.rudderstack.com/• Hightouch: https://hightouch.com/• Mike Molinet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemolinet/• Thena: https://www.thena.ai/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Gong: https://www.gong.io/• How today’s top consumer brands measure marketing’s impact: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-todays-top-consumer-brands-measure• About MMM: https://www.marketingevolution.com/marketing-essentials/media-mix-modeling• Recast: https://getrecast.com/• The Contrarian’s Guide to Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Contrarians-Guide-Leadership-Steven-Sample/dp/0787967076• The Art and Adventure of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Adventure-Leadership-Understanding-Resilience/dp/1119090318/• Suits on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70195800• Our Flag Means Death on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Our-Flag-Means-Death-Season/dp/B0B8N4R4X1• What We Do in the Shadows on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/what-we-do-in-the-shadows-0b10c46a-12f0-4357-8a00-547057b49bac• Silo on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/silo• Cal.com: https://cal.com/• Brian Balfour on the Startup Dad podcast: https://www.startupdadpod.com/coping-with-the-loss-of-a-child-and-protecting-your-time-brian-balfour-father-of-2-ceo-and-found/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• AppsFlyer: https://www.appsflyer.com/• Customer.io: https://customer.io/• Branch: https://www.branch.io/• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app—Christopher Miller serves as the VP of Product for Growth and AI at HubSpot. Having spent the past seven years at HubSpot, Chris has been at the center of one of the biggest B2B growth stories in history—leading HubSpot’s early growth strategy, their shift to PLG, and now their investment in AI. Beyond his role at HubSpot, he lends his expertise to founders advising them on PLG and their growth strategy broadly. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• The principles of winning teams, careers, and companies• What customer obsession looks like in practice• How sneaking into a party led to a career opportunity• Advice for breaking into product management• How to find mentors• The top four skills for growth roles• Lessons from building HubSpot’s famous PLG motion—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/relentless-curiosity-radical-accountability-and-hubspots-winning-growth-formula-christopher-mil/#transcript—Where to find Chris Miller:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherwilliammiller/• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/millsyjoeyoung/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Chris’s background(04:15) Chris’s role at HubSpot leading Growth and AI teams(09:17) The story of how Chris crashed a party and pitched his idea around pricing and packaging(12:25) Relentless curiosity and other important traits to have as a PM(16:52) How Chris broke into product management and advice for others wanting to do the same(22:12) Helpful tips for learning the craft of product management(26:30) Why you should talk to customers, former customers, and potential customers(29:34) Mentors vs. sponsors, and advice for finding people who will help you grow(34:02) What makes HubSpot unique(36:07) Customer obsession in action(40:23) How staying in the mid-market space has benefited HubSpot(42:10) HubSpot’s culture code(45:10) Fun rituals at HubSpot(47:36) Key elements that contributed to HubSpot’s early growth(55:00) Fallacies of product-led companies and how HubSpot embraced PLG(1:00:48) Advice for companies wanting to become more product-led(1:04:35) Common mistakes to avoid when trying to start a PLG motion(1:07:53) How HubSpot structures growth loops(1:10:50) The importance of aggressive experimentation within new channels(1:16:11) How Covid accelerated growth at HubSpot(1:17:59) Lightning round—Referenced:• Kyle Poyar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/• Mariah Muscato on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariahmuscato/• Ken Norton on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-unlock-your-product-leadership-skills-ken-norton-ex-google/• Fareed Mosavat on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/how-to-build-trust-and-grow-as-a-product-leader-fareed-mosavat-reforge-slack-instacart-pixar/• Jules Walter on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/leveraging-mentors-to-uplevel-your-career-jules-walter-youtube-slack/• The Culture Code at HubSpot: https://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6307/bid/34234/the-hubspot-culture-code-creating-a-company-we-love.aspx• Brian Balfour on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bbalfour/• Dharmesh on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dharmesh• ChatSpot: https://chatspot.ai/• Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are: https://www.amazon.com/Everybody-Lies-Internet-About-Really/dp/0062390856• Chop Wood Carry Water: How to Fall in Love with the Process of Becoming Great: https://www.amazon.com/Chop-Wood-Carry-Water-Becoming/dp/153698440X• The Score Takes Care of Itself: My Philosophy of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Score-Takes-Care-Itself-Philosophy/dp/1591843472/• I’m a Virgo on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Im-A-Virgo-Season-1/dp/B0B8PXXV2M• Barry on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/barry• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession• Building a great product management organization: https://stripe.com/it-es/guides/atlas/building-a-great-pm-org• Garmin watch: https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-010-02174-01-Vivoactive-Smartwatch-Refurbished/dp/B0BPCNKBW1• Fernet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernet—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups—Geoff Charles is VP of Product at Ramp—the fastest-growing SaaS startup of all time, Fast Company’s #1 Most Innovative Company in North America, and a company I believe we should all study for how they operate, execute, and hire. At Ramp, Geoff has led the product team from the early days, including the development and release of 60+ products and features in the past year alone. He has been building financial services for over a decade, and his interview in Lenny’s Newsletter quickly became one of the most widely read newsletter issues of all time. In today’s podcast, we will discuss:• How velocity is at the heart of Ramp’s culture and success• How writing can unlock clarity, creativity, and rapid problem-solving• How to empower your product team through context sharing• How to practically approach problems from first principles• How Ramp approaches hiring in a unique way• Suggestions for breaking into the world of product management—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/velocity-over-everything-how-ramp-became-the-fastest-growing-saas-startup-of-all-time-geoff-charl/#transcript—Where to find Geoff Charles:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/geoffintech• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffrey-charles/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Geoff’s background(04:49) An overview of Ramp(06:20) The importance of velocity at Ramp(08:50) Single-threaded goals and how to keep teams away from distractions(13:20) Setting lofty goals(15:17) How Ramp empowers teams(17:37) How Geoff’s management style has evolved at Ramp(19:55) The product design process at Ramp(21:19) Ramp’s system for sharing feedback(23:07) How Ramp handles bug fixes (24:15) Advice for PMs who want to move faster(29:29) Why velocity and impact can help protect against burnout(32:33) Planning vs. doing(37:54) Ramp’s strategy documents (40:55) Finding your unique positioning(42:46) OKRs(44:53) The importance of first-principle thinking(48:53) How to use writing to think through problems (51:46) How Geoff carves out time for deep work(54:05) How Geoff manages tasks and stays organized(57:15) Why other roles share the PM load at Ramp(1:00:30) PM responsibilities at Ramp(1:01:46) Identifying A+ talent(1:06:02) The skills Ramp looks for when hiring(1:07:33) Advice for people wanting to break into product management (1:10:37) Lightning round—Referenced:• How Ramp builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-ramp-builds-product• Bill: https://www.bill.com/• Expensify: https://www.expensify.com/• Concur: https://www.concur.com/• Coupa: https://www.coupa.com/• Nicole Forsgren on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer-productivity-nicole-forsgren-microsoft-research-github-goo/• Sheryl Sandberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryl-sandberg-5126652/• Getting Things Done: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Things-Done-Stress-Free-Productivity/dp/0143126563• When Breath Becomes Air: https://www.amazon.com/When-Breath-Becomes-Paul-Kalanithi/dp/081298840X• The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f• Whoop: https://www.whoop.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

This episode is brought to you by DX—a platform for measuring and improving developer productivity.—Dr. Nicole Forsgren is a developer productivity and DevOps expert who works with engineering organizations to make work better. Best known as co-author of the Shingo Publication Award-winning book Accelerate and the DevOps Handbook, 2nd edition and author of the State of DevOps Reports, she has helped some of the biggest companies in the world transform their culture, processes, tech, and architecture. Nicole is currently a Partner at Microsoft Research, leading developer productivity research and strategy, and a technical founder/CEO with a successful exit to Google. In a previous life, she was a software engineer, sysadmin, hardware performance engineer, and professor. She has published several peer-reviewed journal papers, has been awarded public and private research grants (funders include NASA and the NSF), and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Computerworld, and InformationWeek. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• Two frameworks for measuring developer productivity: DORA and SPACE• Benchmarks for what good and great look like• Common mistakes to avoid when measuring developer productivity• Resources and tools for improving your metrics• Signs your developer experience needs attention• How to improve your developer experience• Nicole’s Four-Box framework for thinking about data and relationships—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer-productivity-nicole-forsgren-microsoft-research-github-goo/#transcript—Where to find Nicole Forsgren:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nicolefv• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolefv/• Website: https://nicolefv.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nicole’s background(07:55) Unpacking the terms “developer productivity,” “developer experience,” and “DevOps”(10:06) How to move faster and improve practices across the board(13:43) The DORA framework(18:54) Benchmarks for success(22:33) Why company size doesn’t matter (24:54) How to improve DevOps capabilities by working backward(29:23) The SPACE framework and choosing metrics(32:51) How SPACE and DORA work together(35:39) Measuring satisfaction(37:52) Resources and tools for optimizing metrics(41:29) Nicole’s current book project(45:43) Common pitfalls companies run into when rolling out developer productivity/optimizations(47:42) How the DevOps space has progressed(50:07) The impact of AI on the developer experience and productivity(54:04) First steps to take if you’re trying to improve the developer experience(55:15) Why Google is an example of a company implementing DevOps solutions well(56:11) The importance of clear communication(57:32) Nicole’s Four-Box framework(1:05:15) Advice on making decisions (1:08:56) Lightning round—Referenced:• Chef: https://www.chef.io/• DORA: https://dora.dev/• GitHub: https://github.com/• Microsoft Research: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/• What is DORA?: https://devops.com/what-is-dora-and-why-you-should-care/• Dustin Smith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustin-smith-b0525458/• Nathen Harvey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathen/• What is CI/CD?: https://about.gitlab.com/topics/ci-cd/• Trunk-based development: https://cloud.google.com/architecture/devops/devops-tech-trunk-based-development• DORA DevOps Quick Check: https://dora.dev/quickcheck/• Accelerate: The Science of Lean Software and DevOps: Building and Scaling High Performing Technology Organizations: https://www.amazon.com/Accelerate-Software-Performing-Technology-Organizations/dp/1942788339• The SPACE of Developer Productivity: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3454124• DevOps Metrics: Nicole Forsgren and Mik Kersten: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3182626• How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of Intangibles in Business: https://www.amazon.com/How-Measure-Anything-Intangibles-Business/dp/1118539273/• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Tabnine: https://www.tabnine.com/the-leading-ai-assistant-for-software-development• Nicole’s Decision-Making Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wItAODkhZ-zKnnFbyDERCd8Hq2NQ03WPvCfigBQ5vpc/edit?usp=sharing• How to do linear regression and correlation analysis: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linear-regression-and-correlation-analysis• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The difference and why it matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-difference-matters/dp/1781256179/• Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Life-Well-Lived-Joyful/dp/1101875321• Ender’s Game: https://www.amazon.com/Enders-Game-Ender-Quintet-1/dp/1250773024/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0• Suits on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70195800• Ted Lasso on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso• Never Have I Ever on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80179190• Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/• COSRX face masks: https://www.amazon.com/COSRX-Advanced-Secretion-Hydrating-Moisturizing/dp/B08JSL9W6K/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Ronny Kohavi, PhD, is a consultant, teacher, and leading expert on the art and science of A/B testing. Previously, Ronny was Vice President and Technical Fellow at Airbnb, Technical Fellow and corporate VP at Microsoft (where he led the Experimentation Platform team), and Director of Data Mining and Personalization at Amazon. He was also honored with a lifetime achievement award by the Experimentation Culture Awards in September 2020 and teaches a popular course on experimentation on Maven. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• How to foster a culture of experimentation• How to avoid common pitfalls and misconceptions when running experiments• His most surprising experiment results• The critical role of trust in running successful experiments• When not to A/B test something• Best practices for helping your tests run faster• The future of experimentation—Enroll in Ronny’s Maven class: Accelerating Innovation with A/B Testing at https://bit.ly/ABClassLenny. Promo code “LENNYAB” will give $500 off the class for the first 10 people to use it.—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing-ronny-kohavi-airbnb-microsoft-amazon/—Where to find Ronny Kohavi:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ronnyk• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronnyk/• Website: http://ai.stanford.edu/~ronnyk/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Ronny’s background(04:29) How one A/B test helped Bing increase revenue by 12%(09:00) What data says about opening new tabs(10:34) Small effort, huge gains vs. incremental improvements (13:16) Typical fail rates(15:28) UI resources(16:53) Institutional learning and the importance of documentation and sharing results(20:44) Testing incrementally and acting on high-risk, high-reward ideas(22:38) A failed experiment at Bing on integration with social apps(24:47) When not to A/B test something(27:59) Overall evaluation criterion (OEC)(32:41) Long-term experimentation vs. models(36:29) The problem with redesigns(39:31) How Ronny implemented testing at Microsoft(42:54) The stats on redesigns (45:38) Testing at Airbnb(48:06) Covid’s impact and why testing is more important during times of upheaval (50:06) Ronny’s book, Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments: A Practical Guide to A/B Testing(51:45) The importance of trust(55:25) Sample ratio mismatch and other signs your experiment is flawed(1:00:44) Twyman’s law(1:02:14) P-value(1:06:27) Getting started running experiments(1:07:43) How to shift the culture in an org to push for more testing(1:10:18) Building platforms(1:12:25) How to improve speed when running experiments(1:14:09) Lightning round—Referenced:• Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments: A Practical Guide to A/B Testing: https://experimentguide.com/• Seven rules of thumb for website experimenters: https://exp-platform.com/rules-of-thumb/• GoodUI: https://goodui.org• Defaults for A/B testing: http://bit.ly/CH2022Kohavi• Ronny’s LinkedIn post about A/B testing for startups: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ronnyk_abtesting-experimentguide-statisticalpower-activity-6982142843297423360-Bc2U• Sanchan Saxena on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/sanchan-saxena-vp-of-product-at-coinbase-on-the-inside-story-of-how-airbnb-made-it-through-covid-what-he8217s-learned-from-brian-chesky-brian-armstrong-and-kevin-systrom-much-more/• Optimizely: https://www.optimizely.com/• Optimizely was statistically naive: https://analythical.com/blog/optimizely-got-me-fired• SRM: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ronnyk_seat-belt-wikipedia-activity-6917959519310401536-jV97• SRM checker: http://bit.ly/srmCheck• Twyman’s law: http://bit.ly/twymanLaw• “What’s a p-value” question: http://bit.ly/ABTestingIntuitionBusters• Fisher’s method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%27s_method• Evolving experimentation: https://exp-platform.com/Documents/2017-05%20ICSE2017_EvolutionOfExP.pdf• CUPED for variance reduction/increased sensitivity: http://bit.ly/expCUPED• Ronny’s recommended books: https://bit.ly/BestBooksRonnyk• Chernobyl on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/chernobyl• Blink cameras: https://blinkforhome.com/• Narrative not PowerPoint: https://exp-platform.com/narrative-not-powerpoint/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.—Noah Weiss is Chief Product Officer at Slack, where he leads all aspects of the product organization, including the self-service SMB business, the team that launched huddles and clips, and the search and machine-learning teams. Prior to Slack, Noah served as SVP of Product at Foursquare. He started his career at Google, leading the structured data search team and working on display ads. In today’s episode, we discuss:• The top 10 traits of great PMs• How “complaint storms” helped Slack teams foster empathy• How Slack’s product team is approaching AI• “Comprehension desirability” and other key factors leading to Slack’s success• Why you should be customer-aware but not customer-obsessed• Important areas of growth for both new PMs and senior PMsCurious to learn more about Slack? You can try Slack Pro and get 50% off using this link.—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-10-traits-of-great-pms-how-ai-will-impact-your-product-and-slacks-product-development-process/—Where to find Noah Weiss:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/noah_weiss• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahw/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Noah’s background(04:22) Noah’s advice on new parenthood(07:23) Lessons learned from leading product at Foursquare(11:33) Advice for working with strongly opinionated founders(14:14) Thinking of involvement on a U-shaped curve(16:53) Principles at Slack(19:32) Implementing ML, AI, and LLMs in meaningful ways(25:11) How Slack structures AI teams(26:59) Complaint storms and how they help foster empathy(30:01) Slack’s approach to prioritization (32:26) How delight is baked into the DNA of Slack(34:41) How Slack thinks about competition (38:04) Building a culture that takes big bets(41:40) Rituals at Slack(44:51) How Slack unlocked new levers of growth and revived their self-serve business(52:01) Slack’s early success and the factors that made them successful (58:08) Slack’s pilot programs for testing new features(1:02:03) Noah’s famous blog post: “The 10 Traits of Great Product Managers”(1:10:15) Book recommendations to improve your writing(1:12:30) Managing up and the importance of data fluency(1:14:54) The most important skills to improve as an early-career PM and as a senior PM(1:17:16) Lightning round—Referenced:• Emily Oster: https://emilyoster.net/• Dennis Crowley: https://denniscrowley.com/• Stewart Butterfield on Twitter: https://twitter.com/stewart• Don’t Make Me Think, Revisited: A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Think-Revisited-Usability/dp/0321965515• Gustav Söderström on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-spotify-the-science-of-product-taking-risky-bets-and-how-ai-is-already-impacting-the-future-of-music-gustav-soderstrom-co-president-cpo-and-cto-at-spotify/• Seth Godin: https://seths.blog/• Noah’s blog post on the 10 traits of great PMs: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/10-traits-of-great-pms-a7776cd3d9cd• Five Dangerous Myths about Product Management: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/five-dangerous-myths-about-product-management-d1d852ed02a2• Paul Graham: http://paulgraham.com/• Ben Horowitz on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bhorowitz• On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Memoir-Craft-Stephen-King/dp/1982159375• On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-Classic-Guide-Nonfiction/dp/0060891548• Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t: And Other Tough-Love Truths to Make You a Better Writer: https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492• Several Short Sentences About Writing: https://www.amazon.com/Several-Short-Sentences-About-Writing/dp/0307279413• Paige Costello on Twitter: https://twitter.com/paigenow• Creative Selection: Inside Apple's Design Process During the Golden Age of Steve Jobs: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Selection-Inside-Apples-Process/dp/1250194466• The Innovator’s Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780• Radical Candor: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kim-Scott/dp/1250258405• Leadership: In Turbulent Times: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Turbulent-Doris-Kearns-Goodwin/dp/1476795924• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession• The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f• Nanit: https://www.nanit.com/• Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-smart-bassinet• Uppababy: https://uppababy.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Hari Srinivasan is VP of Product at LinkedIn Talent Solutions, where he oversees LinkedIn Recruiter, LinkedIn Jobs, and LinkedIn Learning. He’s also a frequent guest lecturer at Stanford University. Previously, he served as the CEO and founder of We Created It, which was acquired by LinkedIn in 2014. Hari has a passion for building products, with experience ranging from creating the first U.S. hybrid SUV to developing a No. 1 app and writing a beloved children’s book. In today’s episode, we discuss:• LinkedIn’s unique business model and org structure• How to optimize your LinkedIn experience and improve your chances of getting a PM role• How to adapt to a skills-first talent market• The story of Hari’s failed first product review, and how he pivoted for success• Strategies for building and maintaining complex systems• How to get into product management—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/linkedins-product-evolution-and-the-art-of-building-complex-systems-hari-srinivasan-linkedin/#transcript—Where to find Hari Srinivasan:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hsrinivasan1/• Website: https://www.mindofhari.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Hari’s background(05:04) How Twitter brought Lenny and Hari together(06:32) LinkedIn’s positive evolution, and what they did right(10:14) Specific changes that made LinkedIn’s feed more interesting(11:12) Understanding the algorithm and what kinds of content perform best(12:21) The talent solution product(15:46) The shift to skills-first hiring, and how LinkedIn changed their approach(20:24) The open-to-work signal, and the newly released open-to-internal-work signal(22:13) The PM talent landscape, and tips for landing a PM role(24:55) How to optimize your LinkedIn profile to get noticed by recruiters(28:38) Hari’s first product review at LinkedIn(30:38) LinkedIn’s North Star, and how to operationalize the North Star at any company(33:24) LinkedIn’s members-first value(35:32) Building and maintaining complex systems(38:09) The RAPID framework and the Five-Day Alignment framework(39:51) What LinkedIn looks for in new hires(40:51) The latest innovations at LinkedIn(43:16) LinkedIn Learning(45:00) Hari’s product management course(48:19) Advice for people hoping to get into product management(50:40) How to level up your PM skills(51:57) Hari’s creative side projects (55:02) Lightning round—Referenced:• Tweet from TheCuriousPM: https://twitter.com/zatin_jatin/status/1658616200560254978?s=20• The Curious PM on Twitter: https://twitter.com/zatin_jatin• Decision-making at LinkedIn: https://engineering.linkedin.com/blog/2018/03/scaling-decision-making-across-teams-within-linkedin-engineering• LinkedIn Learning: https://www.linkedin.com/learning• Thinking in Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557• Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrow-novel-Gabrielle-Zevin/dp/0593321200• An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us: https://www.amazon.com/Immense-World-Animal-Senses-Reveal/dp/0593133234• Star Wars on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/brand/star-wars• Case 63 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4c9ZKaFtEKweSYOlYvxfvp• E.T. on Tubi: https://tubitv.com/movies/607451/e-t-the-extra-terrestrial• BriteBrush: https://www.amazon.com/BriteBrush-Interactive-Smart-Toothbrush-featuring/dp/B07VLL8QH4—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech—Julia Schottenstein is a product lead at dbt Labs, a data transformation company, and an active angel investor in data and infrastructure startups. She first got excited about dbt in 2019 when she was a VC at NEA and decided to make the leap from investor to operator by joining dbt Labs. She also co-hosts the dbt Labs Analytics Engineering Podcast, a show about data trends that impact analytics engineers’ work. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Advice for founders hoping to improve their M&A outcome• How to strategically think about competition• How to determine your paid features and have willingness-to-pay conversations• Why Julia lives by “worse is better” and “tech debt is a champagne problem”• Lessons from dbt Labs• What PMs can learn from investors—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/ma-competition-pricing-and-investing-julia-schottenstein-dbt-labs/#transcript—Where to find Julia Schottenstein:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/j_schottenstein• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-schottenstein-25424318/• Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/4BKMMeVXk4jJnAQSqGSJvE—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Julia’s background(04:15) How Julia went from VC to working in product at dbt Labs(08:24) Four things Julia uses to evaluate a company’s potential (11:10) How to identify whether or not you have product-market fit(12:05) Distribution strategies(13:11) M&A strategies(15:54) Lessons from the Transform acquisition(18:01) Competitive values at dbt(20:25) Keys to dbt’s success(26:35) An offsite exercise Julia used to help her team internalize upcoming changes(29:32) Determining what features are included in open source(31:56) Pricing and willingness to pay(33:34) Lessons from dbt Labs’s first pricing change(36:33) Whether or not to be public about selling your startup(40:08) How to utilize connections during acquisitions(44:57) How to communicate selling your company(46:33) M&A market forecast(47:28) Values at dbt Labs (50:14) Lessons from working with strongly opinionated users(52:02) The importance of shipping, learning, and iterating (54:08) How VC skills translate into product(57:03) Lightning round—Referenced:• dbt Labs: https://www.getdbt.com/• Tristan Handy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanhandy/• dbt Labs acquires Transform to enhance Semantic Layer tool: https://www.techtarget.com/searchbusinessanalytics/news/365530993/DBT-Labs-acquires-Transform-to-enhance-Semantic-Layer-tool• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/en/• Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid: https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567• Red strings training clip from Ted Lasso: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVe3Iwy10MA• Monetizing Innovation: https://www.amazon.com/Monetizing-Innovation-Companies-Design-Product/dp/1119240867• Madhavan Ramanujam on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-art-and-science-of-pricing-madhavan#details• Pricing survey: https://www.qualtrics.com/marketplace/vanwesterndorp-pricing-sensitivity-study/• Hunter Walk’s blog post about publicly selling your startup: https://hunterwalk.com/2023/05/13/the-acquihire-market-for-early-stage-startups-is-ice-cold-one-better-strategy-announce-youre-for-sale/• Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214506/• The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Snowball-Warren-Buffett-Business-Life/dp/0553384619/r• Sam Walton: Made in America: https://www.amazon.com/Sam-Walton-Made-America/dp/0553562835• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession• In Depth podcast: https://review.firstround.com/podcast• dbt community Slack: https://www.getdbt.com/community/join-the-community/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Brave—The independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders—Paige Costello is a beloved product leader with a reputation as a remarkable coach and mentor. She is currently the Head of Core Product at Asana, where she leads the group responsible for Asana’s web, desktop, and mobile apps. Prior to that role, she served as the Director of Product at Intercom and, before that, as a Group PM at Intuit, where she kickstarted her product career through their renowned APM program. In today’s episode, we discuss:• The unique product development process at Asana and how it’s evolved• The double-diamond framework• Conscious leadership training, and why every Asana employee learns it• How to demonstrate confidence and earn trust from skeptics• Why curiosity and openness may be the most important PM competencies• How to give feedback using impact statements—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-ask-the-right-questions-project-confidence-and-win-over-skeptics-paige-costello-asana-intercom-intuit/#transcript—Where to find Paige Costello:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/paigenow• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paigecostello/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Paige’s background(04:38) What Paige is responsible for at Asana(06:04) The evolution of Asana’s product development process(09:10) Planning frequency(11:26) Examples of areas and metric tracking at Asana(12:46) The double-diamond process and how it’s applied at Asana(16:53) Asana’s office-centric hybrid work culture and the future of WFH(21:45) How to garner trust and win over skeptics(24:45) Why you should befriend researchers(26:17) How to exude confidence(29:03) The 3Es framework(33:43) Advice for early-career PMs(38:43) Paige’s latest pillars strategy(40:05) AI at Asana(41:50) Lessons from Paige’s time at Intuit(45:53) Challenges new PMs face(48:55) Challenges Paige has faced in her career(52:39) Paige’s skill-focused career philosophy(55:43) Lightning round—Referenced:• Use This Equation to Determine, Diagnose, and Repair Trust: https://review.firstround.com/use-this-equation-to-determine-diagnose-and-repair-trust• About conscious leadership at Asana: https://wavelength.asana.com/workstyle-simple-shift/• The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success: https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable/dp/0990976904• Intuit: https://www.intuit.com/• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507• The Blind Assassin: https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Assassin-Novel-Margaret-Atwood/dp/0385720955• The Alchemist: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemist-Paulo-Coelho/dp/0062315005• The Diplomat on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81288983• Fire of Love on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/fire-of-love/1hC7erRfsl3B• Poe: https://poe.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made—Jiaona Zhang (JZ) is a product leader with a strong background in consumer products and extensive hiring and management experience. She is currently SVP of Product at Webflow as well as a lecturer at Stanford, where she teaches a graduate-level course on product management. Before Webflow, JZ was Head of Product for the Homes Platform at Airbnb and has also led product teams at Airbnb, WeWork, and Dropbox. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Building a “minimum lovable product” rather than a minimum viable product• How to create better roadmaps through storytelling• Top lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow• The importance of setting ambitious OKRs• JZ’s first 90 days playbook: how to succeed in a new role• Advice for early-career PMs—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-minimum-lovable-products-stories-from-wework-and-airbnb-and-thriving-as-a-pm-jiaona-zhang-webflow-wework-airbnb-dropbox/#transcript—Where to find Jiaona Zhang:• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/managing-your-pm-career• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/• Website: https://www.jiaonazhang.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) JZ’s background(04:22) Common mistakes new PMs make(06:44) Why Airbnb Plus didn’t work out, and takeaways from that experience(10:51) Executing big dreams step-by-step(13:45) The right way to push back against founders(16:54) Minimum lovable product vs. minimum viable product(20:53) What makes a product lovable(22:20) Advice on roadmapping and prioritization(28:04) Tips for new PMs to accelerate their career(29:16) JZ’s top skills and how they have evolved over her career(31:37) Designing crisp OKRs(36:09) Lessons from WeWork(43:01) Winning the first 90 days at a new company(48:34) Why trust is crucial(51:48) High-level lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow(56:38) The one piece of advice that transformed JZ’s career(58:39) Lightning round—Referenced:• Mike Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikelewis/• “What working at Figma taught me about customer obsession,” VP of Product Sho Kuwamoto: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-working-at-figma-taught-me-about• WeWork: https://www.wework.com/• WeCrashed on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/wecrashed/umc.cmc.6qw605uv2rwbzutk2p2fsgvq9• Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days: https://www.amazon.com/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/150112174X• The Making of a Manager: What to Do When Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0735219567• Tress of the Emerald Sea: A Cosmere Novel: https://www.amazon.com/Tress-Emerald-Sea-Brandon-Sanderson/dp/1250899656/• Arcane on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81435684• Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe