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People I (Mostly) Admire

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Freakonomics co-author Steve Levitt tracks down other high achievers for surprising, revealing conversations about their lives and obsessions. Join Levitt as he goes through the most interesting midlife crisis you’ve ever heard — and learn how a renegade sheriff is transforming Chicago's jail, how a biologist is finding the secrets of evolution in the Arctic tundra, and how a trivia champion memorized 160,000 flashcards.

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136 Episodes
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Cat Bohannon’s new book puts female anatomy at the center of human evolution. She tells Steve why it takes us so long to give birth, what breast milk is really for, and why the human reproductive system is a flaming pile of garbage. SOURCE:Cat Bohannon, researcher and author. RESOURCES:Eve: How the Female Body Drove 200 Million Years of Human Evolution, by Cat Bohannon (2023).“Genomic Inference of a Severe Human Bottleneck During the Early to Middle Pleistocene Transition,” by Wangjie Hu, Ziqian Hao, Pengyuan Du, Fabio Di Vincenzo, Giorgio Manzi, Jialong Cui, Yun-Xin Fu, Yi-Hsuan, and Haipeng Li (Science, 2023).“The Greatest Invention in the History of Humanity,” by Cat Bohannon (The Atlantic, 2023).“A Newborn Infant Chimpanzee Snatched and Cannibalized Immediately After Birth: Implications for ‘Maternity Leave’ in Wild Chimpanzee,” by Hitonaru Nishie and Michio Nakamura (American Journal of Biological Anthropology, 2018).“War in the Womb,” by Suzanne Sadedin (Aeon, 2014).“Timing of Childbirth Evolved to Match Women’s Energy Limits,” by Erin Wayman (Smithsonian Magazine, 2012).“Bonobo Sex and Society,” by Frans B. M. de Waal (Scientific American, 2006). EXTRAS:“Ninety-Eight Years of Economic Wisdom,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).“We Can Play God Now,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).“Yuval Noah Harari Thinks Life Is Meaningless and Amazing,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022).“Jared Diamond on the Downfall of Civilizations — and His Optimism for Ours,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
Economist Daron Acemoglu likes to tackle big questions. He tells Steve how colonialism still affects us today, who benefits from new technology, and why democracy wasn’t always a sure thing. SOURCE:Daron Acemoglu, professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. RESOURCES:Power and Progress: Our Thousand-Year Struggle Over Technology and Prosperity, by Daron Acemoglu and Simon Johnson (2023)."Economists Pin More Blame on Tech for Rising Inequality," by Steve Lohr (The New York Times, 2022)."America’s Slow-Motion Wage Crisis: Four Decades of Slow and Unequal Growth," by John Schmitt, Elise Gould, and Josh Bivens (Economic Policy Institute, 2018)."Why Mental Health Advocates Use the Words 'Died by Suicide,'" by Nicole Spector (NBC News, 2018)."A Machine That Made Stockings Helped Kick Off the Industrial Revolution," by Sarah Laskow (Atlas Obscura, 2017)."The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China. It’s Automation," by Claire Cain Miller (The New York Times, 2016).Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty, by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson (2012)."The Colonial Origins of Comparative Development: An Empirical Investigation," by Daron Acemoglu, Simon Johnson, and James A. Robinson (American Economic Review, 2001)."Learning about Others' Actions and the Investment Accelerator," by Daron Acemoglu (The Economic Journal, 1993)."A Friedman Doctrine — The Social Responsibility of Business Is to Increase Its Profits," by Milton Friedman (The New York Times, 1970). EXTRAS:"'My God, This Is a Transformative Power,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."New Technologies Always Scare Us. Is A.I. Any Different?" by Freakonomics Radio (2023)."Max Tegmark on Why Superhuman Artificial Intelligence Won’t be Our Slave," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021)."How to Prevent Another Great Depression," by Freakonomics Radio (2020)."Is Income Inequality Inevitable?" by Freakonomics Radio (2017).
Journalist Walt Hickey uses data to understand how culture works. He and Steve talk about why China hasn’t produced any hit movies yet and how he got his own avatar in the Madden NFL video game.  SOURCE:Walter Hickey, author, journalist, and data expert. RESOURCES:You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything, by Walter Hickey (2023)."France Gave Teenagers $350 for Culture. They’re Buying Comic Books," by Aurelien Breeden (The New York Times, 2021)."How I Escaped a Chinese Internment Camp," by Fahmida Azim, Anthony Del Col, and Josh Adams (Business Insider, 2021)."Why You Should Stop Binge-Watching," by Alan Jern (Psychology Today, 2021)."China Wants Soft Power. But Censorship Is Stifling Its Film Industry," by Eduardo Baptista (CNN, 2019)."The Economic Impact of On-Screen Tourism: The Case of The Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit," by ShiNa Li, Hengyun Li, Haiyan Song, Christine Lundberg, and Shujie Shen (Tourism Management, 2017)."A Lazy, Out-Of-Shape Amateur Won Two More Super Bowls Than Tony Romo," by Walter Hickey and Jody Avirgan (FiveThirtyEight, 2015)."How Madden Helped a Schlub Like Me Make It Into the NFL," by Walter Hickey (FiveThirtyEight, 2015)."'Kung Fu Panda' Prompts Soul-Searching in China," by Simon Rabinovitch (Reuters, 2008).Numlock News, by Walter Hickey. EXTRAS:"Nate Silver Says We’re Bad at Making Predictions," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."Adding Ten Healthy Years to Your Life," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."David Epstein Knows Something About Almost Everything," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021)."Professor Carl Hart Argues All Drugs Should Be Legal — Can He Convince Steve?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021)."Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021)."Sue Bird: 'You Have to Pay the Superstars,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
Arnold Schwarzenegger has been a bodybuilder, an actor, a governor, and, now, an author. He tells Steve how he’s managed to succeed in so many fields — and what to do when people throw eggs at you. SOURCE:Arnold Schwarzenegger, professional bodybuilder, actor, and former governor of California. RESOURCES:Be Useful: Seven Tools for Life, by Arnold Schwarzenegger (2023)."Arnold Schwarzenegger: Environmentalists Are Behind the Times. And Need to Catch Up Fast," by Arnold Schwarzenegger (USA Today, 2023).Arnold, Netflix documentary (2023)."Gubernatorial Recall Election Debate," (C-SPAN, 2003)."Cinema: Best of '84: Cinema," (TIME, 1985). EXTRAS:"This Is Your Brain on Pollution (Update)," by Freakonomics Radio (2022).Twins, film by Ivan Reitman (1988).The Terminator, film by James Cameron (1984).
Physicist Helen Czerski loves to explain how the world works. She talks with Steve about studying bubbles, setting off explosives, and how ocean waves have changed the course of history. SOURCE:Helen Czerski, physicist and oceanographer at University College London. RESOURCES:The Blue Machine: How the Ocean Works, by Helen Czerski (2023)."Ocean Bubbles Under High Wind Conditions – Part 1: Bubble Distribution and Development," by Helen Czerski, Ian M. Brooks, Steve Gunn, Robin Pascal, Adrian Matei, and Byron Blomquist (Ocean Science, 2022)."When It Comes to Sucking Up Carbon Emissions, ‘The Ocean Has Been Forgiving.’ That Might Not Last," by Bella Isaacs-Thomas (PBS NewsHour, 2022)."Ocean's Hidden Heat Measured With Earthquake Sounds," by Paul Voosen (Science, 2020)."Why Is the Ocean so Important for Climate Change?" by Kathryn Tso (MIT Climate Portal, 2020)."Issues Brief: Ocean Deoxygenation," by the International Union for Conservation of Nature (2019)."Behold the Bubbly Ocean," by Helen Czerski (Physics World, 2017).Storm in a Teacup: The Physics of Everyday Life, by Helen Czerski (2016)."Research Highlight: Scripps and the Science Behind the D-Day Landings," by James Vazquez and Mario C. Aguilera (Scripps Institution of Oceanography, 2014)."A Mechanism Stimulating Sound Production From Air Bubbles Released From a Nozzle," by Grant B. Deane and Helen Czerski (Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 2008)."β-δ Phase Transition During Dropweight Impact on Cyclotetramethylene-Tetranitroamine," by Helen Czerski, M. W. Greenaway, William G. Proud, and John E. Field (Journal of Applied Physics, 2004).  EXTRAS:"Reading Dostoevsky Behind Bars," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."Can Data Keep People Out of Prison?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."Joshua Jay: 'Humans Are So, So Easy to Fool,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).
The filmmaker doesn’t want to be known only for his movies. He tells Steve why he considers himself a writer first, how it feels to be recognized for his role in The Mandalorian, and why he once worked as a rodeo clown. SOURCE:Werner Herzog, filmmaker, author, and actor. RESOURCES:Every Man for Himself and God Against All, by Werner Herzog (2023).The Mandalorian, TV show (2019-2023).The Twilight World, by Werner Herzog (2021).Family Romance, LLC, film by Werner Herzog (2019).Fitzcarraldo, film by Werner Herzog (1982).Of Walking in Ice, by Werner Herzog (1978).Aguirre, the Wrath of God, film by Werner Herzog (1972).Rogue Film School. EXTRAS:"David Simon Is On Strike. Here’s Why," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."Will A.I. Make Us Smarter?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).Freakonomics: The Movie (2010).
Economist Michael D. Smith says universities are scrambling to protect a status quo that deserves to die. He tells Steve why the current system is unsustainable, and what’s at stake if nothing changes. RESOURCES:The Abundant University: Remaking Higher Education for a Digital World, by Michael D. Smith (2023)."Diversifying Society’s Leaders? The Determinants and Causal Effects of Admission to Highly Selective Private Colleges," by Raj Chetty, David J. Deming, and John N. Friedman (NBER Working Paper, 2023)."Are Universities Going the Way of CDs and Cable TV?" by Michael D. Smith (The Atlantic, 2020)."For Sale: SAT-Takers’ Names. Colleges Buy Student Data and Boost Exclusivity," by Douglas Belkin (The Wall Street Journal, 2019)."High School GPAs and ACT Scores as Predictors of College Completion: Examining Assumptions About Consistency Across High Schools," by Elaine M. Allensworth and Kallie Clark (Educational Researcher, 2020)."Mobility Report Cards: The Role of Colleges in Intergenerational Mobility," by Raj Chetty, John N. Friedman, Emmanuel Saez, Nicholas Turner, and Danny Yagan (NBER Working Paper, 2017)."How U.S. News College Rankings Promote Economic Inequality on Campus," by Benjamin Wermund (Politico, 2017).Streaming, Sharing, Stealing: Big Data and the Future of Entertainment, by Michael D. Smith (2016)."Higher Education's Work Preparation Paradox," by Brandon Busteed (Gallup, 2014)."Let’s Level the Playing Field for SAT Prep," by Sal Khan (Khan Academy, 2014)."Race, Poverty and SAT Scores: Modeling the Influences of Family Income on Black and White High School Students' SAT Performance," by Ezekiel J. Dixon-Roman, Howard Everson, and John J Mcardle (Teachers College Record, 2013).EXTRAS:"The Professor Who Said 'No' to Tenure," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022)."Freakonomics Radio Goes Back to School," series by Freakonomics Radio (2022)."Is This the Future of High School?" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022)."America’s Math Curriculum Doesn’t Add Up," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).“Sal Khan: ‘If It Works for 15 Cousins, It Could Work for a Billion People.’” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).SOURCES:Michael D. Smith, professor of information technology and marketing at Carnegie Mellon University.
Computer scientist Fei-Fei Li had a wild idea: download one billion images from the internet and teach a computer to recognize them. She ended up advancing the state of artificial intelligence — and she hopes that will turn out to be a good thing for humanity.  RESOURCES:The Worlds I See: Curiosity, Exploration, and Discovery at the Dawn of A.I., by Fei-Fei Li (2023)."Fei-Fei Li's Quest to Make AI Better for Humanity," by Jessi Hempel (Wired, 2018)."ImageNet Large Scale Visual Recognition Challenge," by Olga Russakovsky, Li Fei-Fei, et al. (International Journal of Computer Vision, 2015).EXTRAS:“How to Think About A.I." series by Freakonomics Radio (2023).“Will A.I. Make Us Smarter?” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023).“Satya Nadella’s Intelligence Is Not Artificial,” by Freakonomics Radio (2023).“Max Tegmark on Why Superhuman Artificial Intelligence Won’t be Our Slave,” by People I (Mostly) Admire (2021).SOURCES:Fei-Fei Li, professor of computer science and co-director of the Human-Centered A.I. Institute at Stanford University.
Data scientist Nate Silver gained attention for his election predictions. But even the best prognosticators get it wrong sometimes. He talks to Steve about making good decisions with data, why he’d rather write a newsletter than an academic paper, and how online poker led him to the world of politics.  RESOURCES"Not Everyone Who Disagrees With You Is a Closet Right-Winger," by Nate Silver (Silver Bulletin, 2023)."The 2 Key Facts About U.S. Covid Policy That Everyone Should Know," by Nate Silver (Silver Bulletin, 2023)."Excess Death Rates for Republican and Democratic Registered Voters in Florida and Ohio During the Covid-19 Pandemic," by Jacob Wallace, Paul Goldsmith-Pinkham, Jason L. Schwartz (JAMA Internal Medicine, 2023)."Why Weather Forecasting Keeps Getting Better," by Hannah Fry (The New Yorker, 2019)."Why FiveThirtyEight Gave Trump A Better Chance Than Almost Anyone Else," by Nate Silver (FiveThirtyEight, 2016).The Signal and the Noise: Why So Many Predictions Fail — but Some Don't, by Nate Silver (2012).EXTRAS"Steven Strogatz Thinks You Don’t Know What Math Is," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2023)."A Rockstar Chemist and Her Cancer-Attacking 'Lawn Mower,'" by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022)."What’s the Secret to Making a Great Prediction?" by No Stupid Questions (2021)."How to Be Less Terrible at Predicting the Future," by Freakonomics Radio (2016)."Nate Silver Says: 'Everyone Is Kind of Weird,'" by Freakonomics Radio (2015)."The Folly of Prediction," by Freakonomics Radio (2011).SOURCES:Nate Silver, founder of FiveThirtyEight and author of the Silver Bulletin.
Abraham Verghese is a physician and a best-selling author — in that order, he says. He explains the difference between curing and healing, and tells Steve why doctors should spend more time with patients and less with electronic health records. RESOURCES:The Covenant of Water, by Abraham Verghese (2023)."Abraham Verghese’s Sweeping New Fable of Family and Medicine,” by Andrew Solomon (The New York Times, 2023).“Watch Oprah’s Emotional Conversation with Abraham Verghese, Author of the 101st Oprah’s Book Club Pick” (Oprah Daily, 2023)."How Indian Teachers Have Shaped Ethiopia's Education System," by Mariam Jafri (The Quint, 2023).“How Tech Can Turn Doctors Into Clerical Workers,” by Abraham Verghese (The New York Times Magazine, 2018).Cutting for Stone, by Abraham Verghese (2009)."Culture Shock — Patient as Icon, Icon as Patient," by Abraham Verghese (The New England Journal of Medicine, 2008).“The Cowpath to America,” by Abraham Verghese (The New Yorker, 1997).My Own Country: A Doctor's Story, by Abraham Verghese (1994)."Urbs in Rure: Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection in Rural Tennessee," by Abraham Verghese, Steven L. Berk, and Felix Sarubbi (The Journal of Infectious Diseases, 1989).EXTRAS:"Are You Suffering From Burnout?" by No Stupid Questions (2023)."Would You Rather See a Computer or a Doctor?" by Freakonomics, M.D. (2022).“How Do You Cure a Compassion Crisis?” by Freakonomics Radio (2020).The Citadel, by A. J. Cronin (1937).Uncle Tom's Cabin, by Harriet Beecher Stowe (1852).SOURCES:Abraham Verghese, professor of medicine at Stanford University and best-selling novelist.
Claudia Goldin is the newest winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. Steve spoke to her in 2021 about how inflexible jobs and family responsibilities make it harder for women to earn wages equal to their male counterparts.  SOURCES:Claudia Goldin, professor of economics at Harvard University.
For 37 years, Rick Doblin has been pushing the F.D.A. to approve treating post-traumatic stress disorder with MDMA, better known as Ecstasy. He tells Steve why he persisted for so long, why he doesn’t like calling drug use “recreational,” and what he learned from his pet wolf.  RESOURCES:"MDMA-Assisted Therapy for Moderate to Severe PTSD: A Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Phase 3 Trial," by Jennifer M. Mitchell, Marcela Ot’alora G., Bessel van der Kolk, Scott Shannon, Michael Bogenschutz, Rick Doblin, et al. (Nature Medicine, 2023)."MDMA Therapy Inches Closer to Approval," by Rachel Nuwer (The New York Times, 2023)."Psychedelics Reopen the Social Reward Learning Critical Period," by Romain Nardou, Edward Sawyer, Young Jun Song, Gül Dölen, et al. (Nature, 2023)."The Social Costs of Keystone Species Collapse: Evidence from the Decline of Vultures in India," by Eyal Frank and Anant Sudarshan (SSRN, 2023)."Global Health, Climate Change and Migration: The Need for Recognition of 'Climate Refugees,'" by Saverio Bellizzi, Christian Popescu, Catello M. Panu Napodano, Maura Fiamma, and Luca Cegolon (Journal of Global Health, 2023)."Comparison of Prolonged Exposure vs Cognitive Processing Therapy for Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Among U.S. Veterans," by Paula P. Schnurr, Kathleen M. Chard, Josef I. Ruzek, et al. (JAMA Network Open, 2022)."MDMA-Assisted Therapy for Severe PTSD: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Phase 3 Study," Jennifer M. Mitchell, Michael Bogenschutz, Alia Lilienstein, Charlotte Harrison, Rick Doblin, et al. (Nature Medicine, 2021)."Inner City Blues: Children Raised in Inner-Cities Face Comparable PTSD Causing Conditions and Consequences as Military Veterans and Deserve Our Attention," by Eric Citizen (SSRN, 2019)."Intergenerational Transmission of Trauma Effects: Putative Role of Epigenetic Mechanisms," by Rachel Yehuda and Amy Lehrner (World Psychiatry, 2018)."Durability of Improvement in Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Symptoms and Absence of Harmful Effects or Drug Dependency After 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine-Assisted Psychotherapy: A Prospective Long-Term Follow-Up Study," by Michael C. Mithoefer, Mark T. Wagner, Rick Doblin, et al. (Journal of Psychopharmacology, 2013)."RETRACTED: Severe Dopaminergic Neurotoxicity in Primates After a Common Recreational Dose Regimen of MDMA ('Ecstasy')," by George A. Ricaurte, Jie Yuan, George Hatzidimitriou, Branden J. Cord, and Una D. McCann (Science, 2002).EXTRAS:"Why Aren’t All Drugs Legal? (Replay)," by People I (Mostly) Admire (2022)."Can the Big Bad Wolf Save Your Life?" by Freakonomics Radio (2022)."How Are Psychedelics and Other Party Drugs Changing Psychiatry?" by Freakonomics Radio (2020).SOURCES:Rick Doblin, founder and president of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS).
Psychologist Thomas Curran argues that perfectionism isn’t about high standards — it’s about never being enough. He explains how the drive to be perfect is harming education, the economy, and our mental health.
Avi Loeb is a Harvard astronomer who argues that we’ve already encountered extraterrestrial technology. His approach to the search for interstellar objects is scientific, but how plausible is his argument?
Reginald Dwayne Betts spent more than eight years in prison. Today he's a Yale Law graduate, a MacArthur Fellow, and a poet. His nonprofit works to build libraries in prisons so that more incarcerated people can find hope.
Obi Felten used to launch projects for X, Google’s innovation lab, but she’s now tackling mental health. She explains why Steve’s dream job was soul-destroying for her, and how peer support could transform the therapeutic industry.
Artist Wendy MacNaughton knows the difficulty of sitting in silence and the power of having fun. She explains to Steve the lessons she’s gleaned from drawing hospice residents, working in Rwanda, and reporting from Guantanamo Bay.
Sal Khan returns to discuss his innovative online high school’s first year — and Steve grills a member of the school’s class of 2026 about what it’s really like.
The creator of "The Wire", "The Deuce", and other shows is leading the Writers Guild on the picket lines. He and Steve break down the economics of TV writing, how A.I. could change television, and why he’s taking a stand even though he’s at the top of the game.
In the newest show from the Freakonomics Radio Network, host Zachary Crockett explores the hidden side of the things around us. This week: How do dinosaur bones emerge from the Upper Cretaceous period to end up in natural-history museums and private collections? 
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Comments (36)

Joe A. Finley II

I'd be SHOCKED to find out that Steve's graduate paper failed to point out the nuances of over-/under-policing in low income and POC communities and rather just was about more boots on the ground cracking more skulls.

Aug 27th
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Aug 9th
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Andrew Conor

well it doesn't look like Wired has fired Jason Kehe yet for insulting Brandon Sanderson, everyone in the LDS faith, Brandon's fans, and HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN. So I'm not going to listen to this episode or support Wired in even the smallest way until they fire that jagoff or at least force him to give an (almost certainly insincere) apology. Sorry, but this guy is not someone I admire.

May 27th
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Apr 13th
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Venus Mohammadi

Great Conversation👌 I hope I heard from Yuval Harari again in this podcast❤

Aug 3rd
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Ryan Schaub

I would like to see these guns with such expanded capabilities the guest describes. Shooting up to a thousand people? If anything, relative to the growth of other technologies - firearm developments are ridiculously slow and archaic.

Apr 25th
Reply

Andrew Conor

Wow. Severely disappointed in Steve and his sheer ignorance in this episode. Steve says he doesn't understand why we need 3,000 warheads and concludes "that pretty much tells you that the people who are in charge of this are not acting very logically." Why? Because you don't understand their decision it must be the wrong decision? All these military minds who have spent their lives studying our enemies and nuclear war and then Steve comes along and thinks he knows better. C'mon man. Let's think of it this way. Let's say I do a podcast where I explain how much damage a single bullet can do to a human body. It is devasting! So then I say "I don't understand why a police officer needs more than one bullet." People would know that I'm not being very logical and not understanding the reality of a firefight. Especially if I followed it up with "Look a cop has all these other conventional weapons that would help them win a fight. Why do they even need a gun?" I'd be a real moron to go around

Apr 19th
Reply (2)
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