Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones
Digest
This episode of the Ezra Klein Show features a conversation with Zadie Smith, a renowned novelist and essayist. The conversation delves into Smith's latest book, "The Fraud," and explores themes of identity, politics, and the complexities of human experience. Smith discusses her essay collection "Feel Free," where she argues that individuals with amorphous identities solidify under political pressure. She explains her own political views as a radical humanist, socialist, and existentialist, and how these perspectives shape her understanding of the world. Smith shares her fascination with the Titchborne trial, a 19th-century case where a butcher claimed to be the heir to a noble estate. She sees it as an example of left-wing populism and draws parallels to the OJ Simpson trial, highlighting the larger truths that can emerge from seemingly false cases. Smith introduces Sarah Ainsworth, a key character in "The Fraud," who represents the working class and their struggle for justice. Sarah's unwavering support for the Titchborne claimant, despite the illogical nature of his claim, reflects a deeper truth about the unfairness of the court system. Smith reflects on her own intellectual blind spots and the limitations of traditional notions of intelligence. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing different ways of knowing, including street smarts, and how these perspectives can enrich our understanding of the world. Smith discusses the rise of the rationalist movement and its emphasis on "facts don't care about your feelings." She argues that this approach is flawed, as emotion plays a crucial role in human experience and can provide valuable insights. Smith and Klein discuss the rise and subsequent decline of "wokeness" as a dominant force in American politics. Smith argues that the initial hierarchical reversal, where marginalized identities were given greater prominence, was a positive development, but it's important to avoid calcifying into new forms of rigid thinking. Smith and Klein explore the violence of political polarization, which forces individuals to inhabit a limited set of identities. They discuss how this process can be particularly harmful to those who are already marginalized and how it can lead to a denuding of the self. Smith emphasizes the importance of recognizing gradations of oppression and how stable notions of identity can create a sense of containment. She argues that individuals are ultimately uncontainable by language and that we should strive to defend the fundamental truth of our multifaceted selves. Smith discusses the linguistic turn in contemporary discourse, where language became a primary battleground for social and political change. She acknowledges the importance of language but also highlights its limitations, particularly in capturing the complexities of human experience. Smith critiques the behavior modification system of social media, arguing that it structures our thoughts and influences our perceptions of the world. She expresses concern about the impact of this technology on our ability to attend to the world around us and to cultivate a sense of mystery. Smith emphasizes the value of mystery and the importance of resisting the urge to classify and label everything. She sees music as a medium that thrives on the internet because it allows for a more fluid and less hierarchical exploration of influences. Smith discusses how technology can act as aspiration devices, shaping our values and influencing our social connections. She reflects on the importance of cultivating deep and meaningful relationships, recognizing that true friendship is a rare and precious thing. Smith explores the connection between aging and loneliness, particularly for women. She reads a passage from "The Fraud" that captures the feeling of exclusion and loss of definition that can accompany aging. Smith discusses the loneliness that can affect older men and the lack of social networks that can support them. She emphasizes the importance of intimacy and privacy as sources of freedom and how marriage can provide a space for genuine self-expression. Smith highlights the importance of listening as a key to knowing people deeply. She emphasizes the need to resist projecting our own ideas and to simply listen to what others have to say. Smith discusses the various forms of exclusion and judgment that people experience, particularly as they age. She explores the feeling of losing definition and the ability to be included in social circles. Smith critiques the binary debates that often arise around race, gender, and age. She argues that the discourse between old and young people is particularly delusional, as it pits people against their future selves. Smith recommends three books to the audience: "The Director" by Daniel Kilman, "Fanon" by Adam Schatz, and Virginia Woolf's diaries. She discusses the themes of complicity and the role of art in confronting difficult historical truths.
Outlines
Identity, Politics, and the Complexities of Human Experience
This episode of the Ezra Klein Show features a conversation with Zadie Smith, a renowned novelist and essayist. The conversation delves into Smith's latest book, "The Fraud," and explores themes of identity, politics, and the complexities of human experience. Smith discusses her essay collection "Feel Free," where she argues that individuals with amorphous identities solidify under political pressure. She explains her own political views as a radical humanist, socialist, and existentialist, and how these perspectives shape her understanding of the world.
The Titchborne Trial and Left-Wing Populism
Smith shares her fascination with the Titchborne trial, a 19th-century case where a butcher claimed to be the heir to a noble estate. She sees it as an example of left-wing populism and draws parallels to the OJ Simpson trial, highlighting the larger truths that can emerge from seemingly false cases. Smith introduces Sarah Ainsworth, a key character in "The Fraud," who represents the working class and their struggle for justice. Sarah's unwavering support for the Titchborne claimant, despite the illogical nature of his claim, reflects a deeper truth about the unfairness of the court system.
Intelligence, Blind Spots, and Different Ways of Knowing
Smith reflects on her own intellectual blind spots and the limitations of traditional notions of intelligence. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing different ways of knowing, including street smarts, and how these perspectives can enrich our understanding of the world. Smith discusses the rise of the rationalist movement and its emphasis on "facts don't care about your feelings." She argues that this approach is flawed, as emotion plays a crucial role in human experience and can provide valuable insights.
The Rise and Fall of "Wokeness" and the Meta-Level of Identity Politics
Smith and Klein discuss the rise and subsequent decline of "wokeness" as a dominant force in American politics. Smith argues that the initial hierarchical reversal, where marginalized identities were given greater prominence, was a positive development, but it's important to avoid calcifying into new forms of rigid thinking.
The Violence of Political Polarization and the Multifaceted Self
Smith and Klein explore the violence of political polarization, which forces individuals to inhabit a limited set of identities. They discuss how this process can be particularly harmful to those who are already marginalized and how it can lead to a denuding of the self. Smith emphasizes the importance of recognizing gradations of oppression and how stable notions of identity can create a sense of containment. She argues that individuals are ultimately uncontainable by language and that we should strive to defend the fundamental truth of our multifaceted selves.
The Linguistic Turn and the Limits of Language
Smith discusses the linguistic turn in contemporary discourse, where language became a primary battleground for social and political change. She acknowledges the importance of language but also highlights its limitations, particularly in capturing the complexities of human experience. Smith critiques the behavior modification system of social media, arguing that it structures our thoughts and influences our perceptions of the world. She expresses concern about the impact of this technology on our ability to attend to the world around us and to cultivate a sense of mystery.
The Value of Mystery and the Limits of Classification
Smith emphasizes the value of mystery and the importance of resisting the urge to classify and label everything. She sees music as a medium that thrives on the internet because it allows for a more fluid and less hierarchical exploration of influences. Smith discusses how technology can act as aspiration devices, shaping our values and influencing our social connections. She reflects on the importance of cultivating deep and meaningful relationships, recognizing that true friendship is a rare and precious thing.
Aging, Loneliness, and the Human Experience
Smith explores the connection between aging and loneliness, particularly for women. She reads a passage from "The Fraud" that captures the feeling of exclusion and loss of definition that can accompany aging. Smith discusses the loneliness that can affect older men and the lack of social networks that can support them. She emphasizes the importance of intimacy and privacy as sources of freedom and how marriage can provide a space for genuine self-expression. Smith highlights the importance of listening as a key to knowing people deeply. She emphasizes the need to resist projecting our own ideas and to simply listen to what others have to say. Smith discusses the various forms of exclusion and judgment that people experience, particularly as they age. She explores the feeling of losing definition and the ability to be included in social circles. Smith critiques the binary debates that often arise around race, gender, and age. She argues that the discourse between old and young people is particularly delusional, as it pits people against their future selves. Smith recommends three books to the audience: "The Director" by Daniel Kilman, "Fanon" by Adam Schatz, and Virginia Woolf's diaries. She discusses the themes of complicity and the role of art in confronting difficult historical truths.
Keywords
Amorphous Identity
A fluid and ever-changing sense of self, not defined by fixed categories or labels. It emphasizes the multiplicity and complexity of human experience.
Left-Wing Populism
A political movement that seeks to empower the working class and challenge established power structures, often through direct action and emotional appeals.
Hierarchical Reversal
A shift in power dynamics where marginalized groups are given greater prominence and their perspectives are centered. It challenges traditional hierarchies and seeks to create a more equitable society.
Linguistic Turn
A shift in intellectual discourse where language became a primary focus, emphasizing the power of words to shape thought and action.
Behavior Modification System
A technology or system designed to influence and change human behavior, often through subtle manipulation of information and incentives.
Aspiration Device
A technology or system that shapes our values and aspirations, influencing what we desire and how we perceive the world.
Containment
The process of limiting or restricting an individual's freedom of expression or self-definition, often through the use of language or social norms.
Street Smarts
Practical knowledge and skills acquired through experience in everyday life, often valued in working-class communities and marginalized groups.
Existential Loneliness
A deep sense of isolation and meaninglessness that arises from the awareness of our own mortality and the vastness of the universe.
Complicity of Art
The ways in which art can be implicated in or contribute to systems of oppression, even unintentionally. It raises questions about the responsibility of artists to confront difficult truths.
Q&A
How does Zadie Smith define her own political views?
Smith identifies as a radical humanist, socialist, and existentialist. These perspectives shape her understanding of the world and her approach to politics.
What is the significance of the Titchborne trial in Smith's book "The Fraud"?
The Titchborne trial serves as an example of left-wing populism and highlights the larger truths that can emerge from seemingly false cases. It also explores the complexities of justice and the struggle for recognition.
How does Smith view the role of emotion in politics and human experience?
Smith argues that emotion is an essential part of human experience and should not be dismissed. She criticizes the rationalist movement's emphasis on "facts don't care about your feelings," arguing that emotion can provide valuable insights and guide us towards truth.
What are Smith's thoughts on the rise and fall of "wokeness" in American politics?
Smith sees the initial hierarchical reversal, where marginalized identities were given greater prominence, as a positive development. However, she cautions against calcifying into new forms of rigid thinking and emphasizes the importance of ongoing dialogue and critical reflection.
How does Smith view the impact of social media on our sense of self and our relationships with others?
Smith critiques social media as a behavior modification system that structures our thoughts and influences our perceptions of the world. She expresses concern about its impact on our ability to attend to the world around us and to cultivate a sense of mystery.
What is the value of mystery in Smith's view?
Smith believes that mystery is a valuable aspect of human experience and that we should resist the urge to classify and label everything. She sees music as a medium that thrives on the internet because it allows for a more fluid and less hierarchical exploration of influences.
How does Smith view the relationship between aging and loneliness?
Smith explores the connection between aging and loneliness, particularly for women. She recognizes the feeling of exclusion and loss of definition that can accompany aging and the importance of finding ways to cope with these challenges.
What are Smith's thoughts on the role of intimacy and privacy in human life?
Smith emphasizes the importance of intimacy and privacy as sources of freedom and how marriage can provide a space for genuine self-expression. She argues that these spaces allow us to shed the performative aspects of our public lives and to be fully ourselves.
What are Smith's recommendations for books that explore themes of complicity and the role of art in confronting difficult historical truths?
Smith recommends "The Director" by Daniel Kilman, "Fanon" by Adam Schatz, and Virginia Woolf's diaries. These books offer insights into the complexities of art, history, and the human condition.
Show Notes
I stumbled on a Zadie Smith line recently that stopped me in my tracks. She was writing in January 2017, and describing the political stakes of that period — Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the U.S. — and the way you could feel it changing people.
“Millions of more or less amorphous selves will now necessarily find themselves solidifying into protesters, activists, marchers, voters, firebrands, impeachers, lobbyists, soldiers, champions, defenders, historians, experts, critics. You can’t fight fire with air. But equally you can’t fight for a freedom you’ve forgotten how to identify.”
What Smith is describing felt so familiar — how politics can sometimes feel like it demands we put aside our internal conflict, our uncertainty, so we can take a strong position. I see it so often in myself and people around me, and yet I rarely hear it talked about. And Smith’s ability to give language to these kinds of quiet battles inside of ourselves is one reason she’s been one of my favorite writers for years.
Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her latest novel, “The Fraud,” also deals with politics and identity. It’s about a case in 19th-century London, but it has eerie resonances with our current political moment. I wasn’t surprised to learn that Trump and populism were front of mind for her when she wrote it. In this conversation, we discuss what populism is really channeling, why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness, how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media, and more.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
Feel Free by Zadie Smith
“Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction” by Zadie Smith
Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman
“Generation Why?” by Zadie Smith
Book Recommendations:
The Director by Daniel Kehlmann
The Rebel’s Clinic by Adam Shatz
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
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one of the most beautiful and insightful conversation i listened to